Dru Johnson (00:00)
Is Iran a Muslim country? Well, our guest today, Dr. Farhad Rezai, I hope I’m saying that correctly, he is a political scientist and he’s an Iranian and he’s a Christian and he has a very interesting story about how he became a Christian in Iran, which he’ll talk about in this episode. But he points out what a lot of Iranians know is that Iranians are not Muslim on the whole and they’re not very religious on the whole and so he helps us think through a lot of what’s going on
in the religious setting within Iran and the house churches in Iran and then how that might actually have implications for what’s been happening in the news and this war with Iran. He’s a very sober minded guy, has lots of great insights, he knows what he’s talking about, stay tuned. If you like if this has been helpful for you, this podcast or this YouTube channel, we ask that you would like and subscribe and if you want to give, you can give at thebiblicalmind.org/give
Dru Johnson (00:59)
The country of Iran, ⁓ what kind of people live there? Like what ancestry do they have? We think of Islam in Iran, but you know, what kind of ⁓ Islam is practiced there? I have a friend who told me.
He goes, no, most people in Islam or Iran are atheists. And I was like, he’s like, they’re practically atheists. I was like, ⁓ okay, I didn’t know that. I don’t know how true that is. But just give us a kind of a basic, here’s Iran, here’s the people who are there, here, and we can go from there.
Farhad Rezaei (01:28)
So that’s an interesting question because you know when it comes to Iran people of outside Iran think that it’s an Islamic country But in reality, it’s not actually let me let me show you something ⁓ According to one survey By a research center that is called Gaman. It’s a research institute and I think it’s in Netherlands
that is overseen by an Iranian professor, a professor of political science. And in 2020, he conducted a research survey. And according to this survey, only 37 % of the population identified themselves as Muslim. Yes, 32 % as Shia Muslim and 5 % as Sunni Muslim. The rest,
Dru Johnson (02:14)
Wow.
Farhad Rezaei (02:25)
No, they’re not. identified themselves as either… well, 22 % 22.20… my apologies, 22.2 % they identified as non-believers. Just… they believe in nothing. Yes.
Dru Johnson (02:38)
Hmm. Just nothing. The nuns. Yeah. Okay.
Farhad Rezaei (02:46)
7.7 % are Zoroastrians. So Zoroastrians for those who are not familiar with this religion, this is the old Iranian religion before Islam coming to take over Iran by force. And 8.8 % are identified themselves as atheist. 7.1 % spirituals. 5.8
agnostics and the rest are Jewish, Baha’is, Christians, ⁓ humanists, mysticals, and etc. So Iran, again, from outside world people think that it’s an Islamic country, but in reality it’s actually not. And what I can tell you that might be surprising to your audience and viewers is that Iran is
the fastest Christianity growing in the world. The fastest. Why I say the fastest, and it’s not just me, I mean many Iran watchers, especially those who, you know, focus on the religious aspect of Iran. Since 1979 that Islamists came to power, there was only 500
Christian converts. Just only 500 people who were known as Christian converts. But what about now? It’s something between three to five million Christian converts in Iran. I mean, look, this is a religious revolution. It’s a religious revolution. Three to five million. And then look, if you ask me personally, I would say it’s even more than that.
Dru Johnson (04:13)
Hmm.
Wow.
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (04:41)
because there is no ⁓ official statistic on this, but it’s just like it’s a matter of unofficial and unconfirmed reports. But it’s something between three to five million Iranians who converted to Christianity.
Dru Johnson (04:48)
Right.
Are there any supremely negative consequences for converting to Christianity there? I mean, if there’s a lot of non-religious people, they don’t, I would imagine they don’t care as much.
Farhad Rezaei (05:14)
The penalty for conversion from Islam to any religion, including Christianity, is death. That’s the capital punishment. Those people who convert to Christianity, they either have to keep it secret, or they have to worship in something that they call house churches. Because there is no way that they can go to legacy churches, for number of reasons.
One reason is that if they are identified by the government as the person who has converted to Christianity, then at best if he is really lucky, he will end up in prison. If unlucky, he will be hanged. Another reason is that the government, since they noticed the huge number of Iranians converted to Christianity, they forced the legacy church
not to allow them to attend the Sunday worships, Sunday services. So for that purpose, they came up with this idea that they have to stay in and make their own churches at home, something that they call it house churches. So that’s how they worship because if they go to the, you know,
Dru Johnson (06:29)
Mm-hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (06:37)
go to the legacy churches, not only they are not allowed, but they will be identified and they will end up in a horrible place.
Dru Johnson (06:46)
So I imagine the legacy churches we’re talking about, ⁓ Roman Catholic, ⁓ Orthodox, yeah. And so the people who are already in those traditions during the time of the Shah, and when the revolution takes place, they kind of get grandfathered in, as we would say, as they’re okay, but no new converts can come to those churches.
Farhad Rezaei (06:51)
Armenians, Assyrians, yes.
No
new converts. Even those legacy, legacy Christians, their number at the time of the Shah, before the Islamic revolution took place in 1979, their number was really higher than what they are now. I don’t know the exact number, but they were close to 500,000 Christians, but now they are less than 200,000. And that’s because of the regime’s repression. Many of them were forced to…
to leave Iran, many of them were, you know, imprisoned, they were tortured, they were, you know, they gone through horrible, horrible treatment by the regime. ⁓ The regime forced them to sell their property and to leave the country. The regime imposed them Islamic lifestyle that they don’t like. For instance, they forced them to ⁓ adhere to
Islamic hijab something that is not required for Christians, but they were forced to To follow this Islamic rule. So now Christian Christian women in Iran they have to obey the Sharia law when it comes to hijab and Many of the Christian girls were forced to marry Muslim men So, I mean look the treatment of Christians
And not just Christians, other religious minorities. Jews, Baha’is. It’s horrible by the regime. yeah, that’s why the number diminished dramatically. For instance, the number of Jews who were living in Iran prior to the revolution, they were approximately 100,000 Jewish people. But now they are just less than 3,000 people.
Dru Johnson (08:58)
Right.
It’s hard to imagine a single Jew living in Iran right now.
Farhad Rezaei (09:07)
Exactly. And now even
those 3,000 people who are living in there, they are constantly monitored. They’re not allowed to hold an Iranian passport because the regime is scared that they might leave or they might go to Turkey. Look, generally speaking, the regime views religious minorities, especially Christians and Jews, as the agents of
Dru Johnson (09:20)
⁓ yeah.
Farhad Rezaei (09:37)
of the so-called Zionism and the United States. So for that purpose, you know, they are heavily monitored. They are not allowed to enter, ⁓ exit the country unless, you know, they have to provide a legitimate reason that why are you going to Turkey? For what purpose? What are you going to do there? Who are you going to meet? I mean, it’s something equivalent to the Stalinist era.
Dru Johnson (09:58)
Mm.
Farhad Rezaei (10:04)
that people were living in constant fear. That’s how unfortunately the situation for religious minorities is in Iran.
Dru Johnson (10:07)
Yeah.
I think it’s difficult for us in the so-called West to imagine that Yemen, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq used to have a lot, there were Jewish populations in all of these countries. And it’s only been, you know, the last 50 years or so. And in some places like Yemen, it’s been the last 15 years, 20 years that they’ve all been kind of forced out. ⁓ So let me, ⁓ let’s do a little cultural analysis for a second.
Farhad Rezaei (10:26)
That’s right. That’s right.
Dru Johnson (10:42)
⁓ The language of Iran, the official language is not Arabic, it’s Farsi, correct? Yeah. Yeah.
Farhad Rezaei (10:49)
It’s not. It’s Farsi or Persian as it’s outside Iran.
Dru Johnson (10:56)
Yeah, so I’m interested in this. This is a really silly question, but okay, so maybe I am one of those Shia or Sunni Muslims who is very devout. I do all the practices. That means at some point in my life, I will have to have learned Arabic or how to read it at least and how to pray in Arabic as a second language so that I can read the Quran because if I’m only reading the Farsi version, then I’m not technically reading the real Quran. Is that correct?
Farhad Rezaei (11:25)
So Arabic language became compulsory in educational curriculum in Iran after the 1979 Revolution. Because the regime forced Iranians to learn ⁓ Islamic language and Sharia law and everything.
Dru Johnson (11:31)
⁓ okay.
Farhad Rezaei (11:51)
And then one thing that this issue actually created, it actually turned out to be something, I mean, in favor of Christians. So they forced the public to learn Arabic and to adhere to the Islamic teachings and to do everything that the government want to get more familiar with Islamic teaching and things. And now something really interesting happened. Actually two things happened.
One thing was that the more Iranians have learned about Islam and Sharia law, the more they understood that this is not what they want. This is not what their culture wants. Culturally, this is really, really strange to them. I mean, this was somehow a blessing when it comes to,
Dru Johnson (12:33)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (12:48)
the mass movement of Iranian people towards Christianity. So they learned that, no, no, no, no, no, this is really, you know, strange to our culture. Prior to the revolution, yes, they were identified as Muslims, but just look on paper, right? They did not read Quran because they did not know Arabic. They were not familiar with the teaching of Islam with Sharia law, but when the regime forced them,
Dru Johnson (13:05)
Right, right.
Farhad Rezaei (13:18)
forced our kids and the people to adhere to Islamic and Sharia law to learn it in the school then suddenly people realize that my god, this is not what we wanted. This is not… This is in a sharp contrast to our culture. So they decided to move away from Islam. This is one of the reasons of the mass exodus of… ⁓
Dru Johnson (13:31)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (13:47)
Iranians to Christianity. Another issue was that at the during the time of the Shah when clerics were not in charge, they did not run the country, they always, you know, in the mosque they talked about the good part of Islam, Islam is religion of peace and etc. But once they came to power, they realized that they’re just lying. What they say
is totally different with what they are doing. Mura’s are corrupt, they are violent, they preach peace, but what they are doing is entirely opposite with peace. So that was the second reason that, you know what, they decided to give up on Islam and to move to other religions. Many of them, as I mentioned earlier, between three to five million of Iranians embraced Christianity.
Dru Johnson (14:18)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (14:44)
Of course, there were some others who were more nationalist, they returned back to Zoroastrianism. Many of them, they entirely gave up on any religion. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (14:57)
⁓ Well, it’s interesting also that, ⁓ I mean, Iran, which is a modern nation state, but the area also has deep roots in Christianity as well. mean, it was Iranian missionaries that went to China in the seventh century and brought Christianity ⁓ into China, right? So I wonder if there’s some sense that Christianity can be viewed as a very ancient religion within the borders. Okay. ⁓ And so if I’m a Christian,
Farhad Rezaei (15:21)
for sure. That’s right.
Dru Johnson (15:27)
and I’m going to a house church, what am I reading? What are we talking about? What are we doing? As far as, you know, if you can give us just a sample of an average house church, if there is such a thing.
Farhad Rezaei (15:35)
and house churches.
Well, there are such things. There are house churches, as I mentioned, for obvious reason, because they cannot worship in public. They cannot go to legacy churches. So they eventually decided to, you know, worship in secret, which is, you know, these places that are called house churches. So what they are doing, you know, they gather ⁓ and that’s exclusively for the…
the Christian converts, probably there are some, you know, missionaries, foreign missionaries going there. I am not aware of it, but I heard some stories that missionaries are going, of course not now, because, you know, the government, you know, has put in place strict policies that if foreigners go in, they are questioned, they are monitored. So this is story for, is for the past.
So they are reading Bible. They are, you know, worshipping just like Sunday services in church and that’s what they are doing So Bible study is their main main practice and activity
Dru Johnson (16:44)
Yeah. And okay, so just entertain me for a second. ⁓ Where are they? Like, are they reading equally from the Old Testament and the New Testament? Or are they like predominantly a New Testament? Because this is part of an issue with Palestinian Christianity. tends to be much more New… Actually, it’s part of problem with a lot of American churches as well. They are all New Testament and no Old Testament.
Farhad Rezaei (17:09)
Well, to be honest with you, I don’t know the answer to this question because look the time that I came came out of Iran it’s been almost two decades. Right? Since then many things have changed and I myself have never attended house churches in Iran because you my story is different. But
These are kind of stories that I am, you know, reading and, you know, hearing from friends who converted and attended these kind of house churches, but probably it’s just mostly New Testament. I have never heard any story that they are, you know, studying Old Testament and that sort of things. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (17:49)
Interesting.
And speaking of you and your relationship to Iran, ⁓ you became a Christian while you were still in Iran, that’s correct?
Farhad Rezaei (17:59)
Look, my story is just a little different. I, you know, when I talk about myself, I hardly can call myself a Christian convert. For a specific reason, I was born in a Muslim family, but not a, you know, a Muslim family that many people think. My father, although on paper he was a Muslim, but in reality he was not.
He had a lot of Jewish and Christian friends in my hometown and he has learned a lot of know stories from Bible and All I’d remember he just taught us stories from Bible. He talked about Jesus a lot and many things related to Christianity up honestly, I I don’t remember I cannot remember one single story that my dad Told us about
anything other than Christianity. So, am I a Christian convert? Probably no. I don’t call myself a Christian convert because, you know, I have never been a Muslim. I have never learned anything about Islam except, except as a part of my study, I learned about Islam, but not as a person who is, you know, practicing Islam. So that is my story. I have heard a lot of good stories about Christianity from my father.
Dru Johnson (19:09)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (19:25)
My father himself never considered himself a Muslim. So to tell you when I converted to Islam, that’s something that I, even I myself cannot tell you. That is my story.
Dru Johnson (19:37)
Hmm. Wow.
I mean, that’s fascinating. Also, I think a lot of people’s brains are melting right now because they probably cannot, they don’t have the categories in place to conceptualize a Muslim family that doesn’t practice Islam, just talks about Bible stories and not the Quran and Hadith. ⁓ And then which makes it a very natural path for you in some ways to mature into Christianity as well. ⁓ It’s just not.
the caricature we have in our minds of what’s going on in Iran.
Farhad Rezaei (20:09)
I totally understand. As I said,
many people outside Iran, especially people in the West, you know, they think that Iranians are Muslims the way that they think, let’s say, people in Iraq are Muslim, in Saudi Arabia or in Syria, I mean, other Islamic countries. But the truth is that even that 47 % of Iranians who identify themselves as Muslims, they are not even
Dru Johnson (20:22)
Right, right.
Farhad Rezaei (20:35)
considered as a true Muslim by other Muslims in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because they are secular in nature. Majority of those 47 % they even did not recite Quran for once. They don’t understand it at all. This is the nature of Iranians. They are secular in nature. They are not like
Dru Johnson (20:44)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (21:03)
And I understand why people make this mistake. It’s because of the government. We have a regime in power, the ruling system that are, you know, a zillot, violent Islamists, jihadists, and unfortunately, they have been, you know, they became the decoy, the face of Iran. That’s why many people think that, okay, all of these people are, you know,
Dru Johnson (21:08)
yeah.
Farhad Rezaei (21:30)
jihadists, zealots who don’t like the West and don’t like Christians, don’t like Jews but no the story is totally different.
Dru Johnson (21:39)
Yeah, and I am trying to think is there another nation or culture like this where we think it’s one thing but it’s a completely different thing on the inside? well certainly is it true statistically speaking that your most zealous Shia Muslims are probably in Iraq, living in Iraq? Would that be correct?
Farhad Rezaei (21:59)
Well, I would say no, they are in Iran. They’re mostly in Qom. Yes, in the religious city of Qom and partly in Mashhad. Remember, when it comes to Shiism… Sorry?
Dru Johnson (22:02)
They are in Iran, okay. Yeah.
Okay, but they’re going to make pilgrimage to Karbala, right?
These are the people that are going to be making pilgrimage to Karbala, right? Yeah. Okay.
Farhad Rezaei (22:19)
Exactly. Let me tell you
something about Christian, about Shi’ism. Shi’ism traditionally, they were quietists. Meaning that they believed in non-interference in politics, doing nothing related to politics, and stay away from everything politics. They were peaceful, they were known as quietists. But from the time that Khomeini came to power, we are
Dru Johnson (22:29)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (22:48)
facing we’re dealing with new shiism which is known as humaneism it came with ayatullah Khomeini who was a was a radical shiist who believed in in civilizational jihad who believed in the destruction of the state of Israel and Recapture of Jerusalem because he thought that this is the prerequisite for the
Dru Johnson (22:51)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (23:16)
the coming of the second Messiah of Shi’ism, is, you know, Mahdi, the 12th Imam. So when we talk about Shi’ism, this new version of Shi’ism is in Iran. The one that is in Iraq, they are mostly adhered to quietism. If you see, yes, Ayatollah Ali Sistani, exactly, Ayatollah Ali Sistani, who is the
Dru Johnson (23:23)
Right.
okay. Which is why they got abused by Saddam Hussein, right? sorry, I didn’t mean to talk over you.
Farhad Rezaei (23:45)
You know, the prominent Shia cleric in Iraq, he’s just mostly away from politics. He ⁓ told his followers not to interfere in politics, to stay away from everything related to the political establishment and everything. So this is the difference between the Iranian Shia Shi’ism and the Iraqi Shi’ism.
Dru Johnson (24:06)
And Shiism, unlike Sunni Islam, has ⁓ a view of a messiah that is to come. They see themselves as the persecuted minority from the Sunnis persecute them. Yeah. So it is wild that you have this, this ⁓ militant, rabidly militant regime that rises up. also, correct me if I’m wrong, you’re the political ⁓ studies scholar. This also kind of helps explain why you have a Shia group.
Farhad Rezaei (24:13)
That’s true.
Exactly. That’s right.
Dru Johnson (24:35)
in Iran that is teaming up with Sunnis in ⁓ Israel and Palestinian territories in Gaza as well, right?
Farhad Rezaei (24:43)
So this is true, as I said, for new Shi’ism or Khomeiniism, the destruction of the State of Israel, the recapturing of Jerusalem and returning it to the hands of Muslims is the prerequisite for the return of Mahdi, the Shia 12 Imam. So Khomeiniists in Iran believe that for this goal, it is okay to team up with Sunni extremist groups.
like Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas who also want to destroy the state of Israel. So the goal here for Iranian Shiites is something, you know, religious for the Sunnis like Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. That’s something geopolitical. want, yes, they want to, you know, as they always, you know, their slogan reads, from the river to the sea.
Dru Johnson (25:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it’s just practical.
Farhad Rezaei (25:42)
It’s all, everything belongs to the Palestinians. So they want something, you know, their goal is geopolitical. For Iranians, the goal is something purely religious.
Dru Johnson (25:57)
It just dawned on me when you said this that turning kind of to the current situation, ⁓ have two, I mean, the American government right now, it looks like there is some evidence that the executive branch also has an eschatological view of what they’re doing in Iran. I there’s some of the things that the secretary of defense is saying where he’s plugging this into Christian eschatology and that ⁓ they’re bringing about the apocalypse, et cetera.
that you might have two apocalyptic worldviews going head to head right now between Iran and the United States. What do you think of that? You can tell me I’m completely wrong. I have no idea.
Farhad Rezaei (26:34)
Look, I look at this particular issue from a political perspective. I don’t know what Pete Hexett said, honestly. I’ve never heard that, but I am sure you were right. You’ve heard it. But I look at this issue, the war, the current development ⁓ from a political perspective. And I believe the reason that the United States, in a joint military operation with Israel, decided to attack Iran
has to do with things related to, for instance, Iran’s nuclear ambitions. For the bigger part of the regime, the bigger part of the life of the regime, since 1979, they tried to obtain nuclear weapons. They advanced their ballistic missile program, which is another component of a nuclear program. And they also sponsored terrorism. So I believe that this time around,
Dru Johnson (27:09)
Mm-hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (27:31)
whether Pete Hexett has that, you know, something is cathodic in his mind or something else. I see it this way that Iran was in a, in a whole different situation in a whole, in a very dangerous place. It was about to acquire nuclear weapon, which would be really, really bad from the strategic perspective. And this war ⁓ was a kind of necessity. And I think it’s
It’s understandable. I’m not trying to say that it’s legitimate. I’m trying because I am an analyst. I don’t want to side with any part of this operation, but I am trying to make sense of it. That why it happened. It happened for a simple reason because Iranian people with this kind of mindset, with this kind of religious perspective who want to destroy Israel, they wanted to, they were…
super close to obtaining nuclear weapon and they should have been stopped by any chance by any means.
Dru Johnson (28:35)
And I think there is a version of this discussion in America, again, from people who are pretty detached from the realities in Iran, who might say just like, well, Iran, they wouldn’t actually launch a nuclear weapon at Israel. It’s just a mutually assured self-destruction kind of thing. So do you have a sense as to whether there’s rhetoric and then there’s what they actually do? Which do you think it falls in with the nuclear weapons?
Farhad Rezaei (29:03)
That’s actually a good point. I remember I wrote an article about this particular issue a few years ago, maybe like over five years ago, that whether the MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction, works with the Iranian regime or not. Look, you have to look at it from this perspective. In many occasions, the leaders of the regime said if they have a nuclear weapon, they would not hesitate to destroy Israel, right?
And then we have a people who think that no matter you will die or you will kill your opponents, the infidels, you will end up in paradise. How can you deal with this kind of people? And then they clearly set their intention that if they had the nuclear weapon, they would destroy the straight of Israel and they would destroy the United States. I mean, if they say it, why you shouldn’t believe it?
Right? And then in action, you can also see that, my God, this regime does not follow rational, you know, the kind of rationality that we have in the West. MAD is a Western rationality. The regime in Iran does not follow that pattern. Right? Look at them right now. They are now bombing Israel with cluster bombs, which is being
Dru Johnson (30:19)
Right?
Right.
Farhad Rezaei (30:32)
prohibited by international law, right? Imagine that this regime that is at the verge of collapse uses a kind of munition that is prohibited by international law. Why we should think that they would not use nuclear weapon if they have it, right?
Dru Johnson (30:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, I have a couple questions that I want to run by you after you said that. mean, that kind of, it’s funny what you said about the rationality of diplomacy here. There’s a parallel to this. And when the United States created the M16 assault rifle that they use in the infantry and that everybody carries in the military, it’s a very small bullet. And in some ways, it’s a, you know, it’s
It’s not very good for like I used to work in the Amazon jungle. Like the bullet is so small that it gets deflected by a leaf kind of thing. ⁓ yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s honestly, there are pellet guns that have almost a similar, ⁓ diameter of bullet, but, ⁓ the thinking behind that was it’s a small bullet, but it topples and it’ll wound people. And the goal is if you wound one of the enemy, takes two to three people to pull that person out. And then in Vietnam,
Farhad Rezaei (31:24)
Just like a pellet gun.
Yeah, they say Russians
say the same story about Klaschenkov.
Dru Johnson (31:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Kalashnikov is doing something very similar. then in Vietnam, soldier, my dad was an infantryman in Vietnam. He said, well, the problem with that is it assumes that they care about their wounded, right? That they actually are going to go get that person. And that’s, think, open question. they follow the road of Hamas where they just say, no, martyrdom, to die for this cause is an honor, even if you’re a civilian. So all the more the merrier.
Farhad Rezaei (32:01)
Exactly.
Dru Johnson (32:17)
I also was talking to a friend of mine ⁓ who has connections in Iran and he, I was just puzzling over this issue, all of the murders of the protestors in the streets and the oppression of the protestors. I’m trying to imagine like what kind of people, it’s almost like ⁓ a super villain movie, like what kind of people gets henchmen to go out in the streets and point a machine gun at people who are protesting and just kill them. And he said,
Farhad Rezaei (32:45)
You see?
Dru Johnson (32:46)
He said it’s not, a lot of them are not Iranians, they’re actually Syrian mercenaries. Have you ever heard this before?
Farhad Rezaei (32:53)
Well, we know that we know for the fact that Iranian regime and its military organ the IRGC has lots of proxy networks Right. They have Hezbollah Palestinian Islamic Jihad Hamas they have Hashd al-Shabi in Iraq they have ⁓ Fatemeun and Zaynab you that were you know active in Syria now They are they are they’re back in Iran. They did not go back
Dru Johnson (33:19)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (33:20)
Fatemeun and Zaynabun were militias from Shiites in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. But once they lost Syria, they did not go back to Afghanistan and Pakistan. They went to Iran. So they built this network of proxies for a reason to defend the regime no matter outside of Iran or inside Iran. And there are many reports by
Dru Johnson (33:27)
⁓
Farhad Rezaei (33:50)
by Iran watchers and also by people inside Iran that many of the people of the militias who participated in the killing of Iranian protesters, they were not speaking Farsi. They were speaking Arabic. So what conclusion can you make? Right? And then let’s go back to the issue of the rationality, the rationality of this regime. If a regime in two single day kills over 40,000 Iranians, just
Dru Johnson (34:01)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (34:19)
Imagine in two single days, do you really believe that this regime would not use nuclear weapons against its adversaries? Right?
Dru Johnson (34:28)
Right.
Yeah. No, that all adds up, which leads me to the other thing I’ve heard from several people who have left Iran. And they said, basically, before the strikes were happening, again, I don’t take sides either. I’m only trying to figure out what’s actually going on the ground. They said that the common feeling of your average Iranian was, yeah, bomb the heck out of Iran.
Farhad Rezaei (34:55)
Great. Yes.
Dru Johnson (34:55)
come do it. Well, for the
Americans to do it. Like they’re not worried about the Americans, mainly because they knew Americans would be more strategic. They’d avoid carpet bombing, et cetera. Do you get that sense as well?
Farhad Rezaei (35:06)
Absolutely. yes, actually Iranian people are really really happy with this current You know us and Israeli strikes and then let me tell you something you can actually Google it after we’re done with this conversation that when when the joint operation
killed Khamenei and it was announced that Khamenei was dead. You just cannot imagine Iranians flooded the street with dancing and holding play cards saying thank you President Trump, thank you Benjamin Netanyahu and they are really happy. And also Iranians in diaspora, they are getting together, they’re dancing, they’re super happy and they thank Israelis and Americans for taking out
Dru Johnson (35:30)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (35:50)
and the rest of the leadership, political and the military leadership for an obvious reason. Iranians people are fed up with this regime. It’s a regime that suppress them. It’s a regime that gives their money to terror groups to use against ⁓ Israel.
to use against American forces in the region. While that money is desperately needed inside Iran, Iran now is facing a lot of crisis. Water crisis, environmental crisis, social crisis, a lot of crisis. And this big country with huge resources, people are living in absolute poverty. You just cannot imagine that.
more than two-third of the population are living below the line of poverty. That means more than 60 million people. Iranian population is 92 million people. So two-third of it would be how much? Would be like more than… ⁓
Dru Johnson (36:39)
huh.
Yeah, 60 million plus, yeah.
Farhad Rezaei (36:55)
60,
70 million. So a country with a lot of natural resources, oil and gas, now people are living in absolute poverty. And at the same time, they are watching that the regime provides Hezbollah with one billion dollar per year, provide Hamas with a lot of money. In one case, the regime provided 30 million dollars per month. That makes like 400 million dollars per year.
to Hamas for one single reason. That’s not their annual budget. That is just specifically provided to Hamas only to gather intelligence on Israeli ⁓ missile program. And another $400 million was given to Hamas as an annual budget. And Iranians are watching and they see that that money is desperately needed inside, but the regime does not care.
Dru Johnson (37:47)
Hmm. Wow.
Right.
Farhad Rezaei (37:53)
The regime
cares more to the Arabs in Iraq, to the Syrians, to the Palestinians, rather than their own people. So it’s normal for them to be happy.
Dru Johnson (38:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes complete sense. I was going to ask you if you could give us some things that we could pray about for our Iranian brothers and sisters, both Christians and not in Iran. And I think you gave us quite a few things that we can specifically pray for for them. I wonder, what is your overall assessment of the situation, the war? Where do you think this is going to go? What do you think the pinch points are going to be for Iran? And I don’t hear a lot of hopefulness that Iran is going to cave in.
and say, okay, we’re giving up our ambitions, but I don’t know what else is gonna happen.
Farhad Rezaei (38:35)
Look,
you can look at what is going on in Iran in two different ⁓ perspectives. One perspective is that, okay, the regime is still there, right? They’re not going to cave in. They’re going to resist and they’re going to survive. Okay. I don’t mind if people make that assessment and that conclusion. It’s fine. But my assessment is that
when we talk about the regime in Iran, what regime are we talking about? The top political leadership is gone. The top military leadership is gone. The regime’s military power is diminished close to zero. It’s the sky is in the control of, in full control of the United States and Israel, right? The missile program is diminished. The drone program is destroyed and
Dru Johnson (39:18)
Hmm.
Farhad Rezaei (39:35)
That is the current situation in Iran. And when we talk about, look, I personally think that many things depend on the United States, whether, you know, because of the nature of decision making by President Trump, we’re not really sure whether he’s going to call off the operation by tomorrow, or he would just say, you know what, we’re going to go ahead until the regime is entirely dismantled. We’re not certain about
Dru Johnson (40:01)
That was a very
polite way to say it because the nature of the decision-making mechanisms of President Trump. Yeah, so we have no idea on that front.
Farhad Rezaei (40:10)
We still have no idea what President Trump is going to do. of course, that’s one of the important factors. But apart from that, when we talk about the Islamic Republic, this is the title of the regime.
It’s not there anymore. Right? Look, when we talk about Islamic Republic, that consists of the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, who was the single decision maker, who was behind almost 95 % of the chaos inside Iran and outside of Iran. He’s not around anymore. There are reports that his son, who said he took over a few
just a few days after the demise of his father, they announced that he took over. are reports that he’s also dead. Okay? And the Revolutionary Guard, as an organization that controls Iran’s economy, that has military power, political power, that’s also being dismantled, almost. Right? So what we are going to talk about is this regime, if it remains, I mean, the worst case scenario.
If it’s going to be there, is it going to be the same? I would say no. This regime will change dramatically because they understand that if they continue with that policy, they should expect the same strike in few months. So I am assuming that if they survive, they have to change. Right?
Dru Johnson (41:52)
So we’re all going to be watching and waiting to see what emerges as this regime and then how, obviously, Israel and America respond to these new leaders as they emerge. Well, Farhad, thank you so much for explaining. I hope you will come back on this podcast later to teach us more about Iran, Christianity in Iran, and to help us.
Farhad Rezaei (42:13)
Well, thank you very much, Drew. I appreciate your invitation.
Dru Johnson (42:17)
help us think through these things. Cause I think for a lot of us, we just feel so clueless as to what is going on and what we should even think about things. So I appreciate.
Farhad Rezaei (42:24)
I somehow
I understand that why many people in the West are somehow clueless, not entirely, but somehow they kept in dark when it comes to Iran. Part of it is because of the legacy media. Unfortunately, the coverage of Iran is not satisfying. For example, right now, if you look at the New York Times, some other Atlantic or some other legacy medias, you will notice that, oh my God, Iran is winning and the United States and
and Israel are being defeated. But the reality is something entirely different. But anyway, it’s my pleasure every time that you want me to be with you. It’s my pleasure. I will be more than happy to join.
Dru Johnson (43:09)
Really appreciate your wisdom. Thanks Farhad
Farhad Rezaei (43:12)
Thank you so much.
