Dru Johnson (00:00)
Who in their right mind would ever write a book on the entire Torah? Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy? Well, two friends of mine, scholars, David Beldman and Michael Rhodes, we’re going to talk to them about a textbook that they wrote covering the entire Pentateuch, all five books of Moses, and how they dealt with various issues that came up and how they think about how it all goes together. How do you guide people to read
not just Exodus and the stories there, but how do you guide them to read Leviticus, all the rituals, all the law, all the poetry, all the narratives? they were brave enough to take it on, and so we’re gonna follow them on their journey. If you like what we do here at the Center for Hebraic Thought, the Biblical Mind podcast, you can like and subscribe here somewhere on YouTube, or you can also, if you’re listening, you can subscribe through your favorite podcast outlet and you can give us a rating, preferably
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Otherwise, you can help us out financially at thebiblicalmind.org slash give. And a recurring gift gets you our new book on pile politics and the Bible from our Bible first conference. And now on to David Beldman and Michael Rhodes.
Dru Johnson (01:44)
Dave Beldman from Canada, Michael Rhodes from New Zealand. Don’t be distracted by his Kiwi accent. and me. and correct me if I’m wrong, Dave, but you and I
contracted a book with Baker Academic to write this introductory textbook on how to read the Pentateuch, the Books of Moses as Christian Scripture. And after two years, is that right, Dave? About
Dave Beldman (02:08)
You know, it was probably about two years where I approached you and said, Hey, we got a bail on this project ’cause it just doesn’t seem to be
Dru Johnson (02:15)
Ha ha.
Dave Beldman (02:15)
going anywhere and you s you convinced
me, No, we should keep going on this, and then about twelve months later, you can finish the story.
Dru Johnson (02:24)
Yikes. Well that that
Michael Rhodes (02:25)
I’ve never heard that part of the story.
Dru Johnson (02:26)
yeah, actually I kind of forgot about that part of the story. and then finally I came and said, I cannot write this kind of book. I’m just no good at this and I’m not doing I’m not doing well and I really do not enjoy it. And right about that time you were like, I’m actually kind of getting into the swing of it and really enjoying it. So so I bailed. I actually backed out of the contract and Baker Academically very b very graciously let me out. But I also instantly recruited
Michael Rhodes, who’s coming to us from New Zealand
Dave Beldman (02:55)
And inst
Dru Johnson (02:55)
right now.
Dave Beldman (02:56)
and and I think instantly contracted another book to write that we had kind of talked about as well, but you know, we we won’t go there.
Michael Rhodes (03:03)
Airing all of our dirty laundry. Thank you for having us on, Dru I also have some complaints.
Dave Beldman (03:09)
In case anyone
Dru Johnson (03:06)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (03:10)
wonders, we’re all still great friends. And just for the
Dru Johnson (03:12)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (03:13)
record, I think Dru you would have done a great job. And it was fun the
Michael Rhodes (03:16)
Me too.
Dave Beldman (03:17)
conversations we had. And I was glad I’m glad that Michael was able to come in come in because he has the same kind of sensibilities that you have. But yeah.
Dru Johnson (03:26)
And and honestly, that’s what kept me in for so long is I got to have those conversations and learn you know, you would get jazzed about part of it. I would learn from you, and then it would kind of key me up. and then yeah, but I’m very glad that you two worked out this book and all of its details and richness. So what what is this book? And it’s an introductory book to the textbook. I I mean it’s kind of meant for the classroom. It’s it’s a textbooky book. but maybe how do you guys
pitch this thing like the the T L D R what’s the short of the long of what this book is doing.
Michael Rhodes (04:00)
Dave, you’ve been on longer. I was I was the extra you should take that question.
Dave Beldman (04:04)
Yeah, yeah. So it is a textbook. It’s aimed at second or third year undergrads, which for anyone who has taught undergrads y you know that this is a very sort of dumbed down level level. It’s very basic. So Michael, would you say you have to have any knowledge of the Pentateuch? I mean, some knowledge of the Pentateuch is helpful, but I think we keep it fairly basic.
Michael Rhodes (04:30)
Yeah, we tried to take as much as possible as much as possible we tried not to take things for granted.
Dru Johnson (04:35)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (04:36)
Yeah,
yeah. And really it’s a book that introduces students to the Pentateuch. And we really want to equip readers of this book to read the Pentateuch well as Christian
Michael Rhodes (04:50)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (04:50)
scripture, as the living word of God for today.
Michael Rhodes (04:54)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (04:55)
And we do that by, you know, there’s chapters on the books of the Pentateuch. We have two for each book so the Pentateuch except for Genesis, which gets more.
but so those are kind of orientation to the books and how they can speak today. And then we also have these what we were calling discourse chapters, but they’re how to read the law, how to read poetry and narrative, how to read violent texts of the Pentateuch and so on, how to read ritual texts. So we really want to equip students to read the Pentateuch well so that it it can speak prophetically today.
Michael Rhodes (05:34)
I I I would just add, like, I think it’s really hard to like write on the Pentateuch ’cause scholars have had so much about it. You know, there’s such this huge conversation. And frankly, like when students are introduced to the Torah, they’re often like overwhelmed by these like scholarly details or whatever. And I almost immediately said no r to being involved in this project ’cause it didn’t seem like the sort of thing that I could do or would do. Most of my academic work has been sort of interdisciplin interdisciplinary kind of
the ethics of the Bible or whatever. But what I loved about this book and the kind of proposal you guys had made and Baker’s sort of vision for it is we really do believe these books are, as we put it in the book, like the Big Bang of the Bible, right? Like this is like the first burst of fire and light. Like the whole
Dru Johnson (06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (06:21)
scriptural story spends out from these texts and they have incredible impact on our the our theology, our ethics, our politics, our view of creation. There’s all this
good stuff in there, you know? And there’s also all of these like Bible in a year killers or or or maybe at worse, like faith killers. Like why all the blood? And what’s this? And I loved working on this textbook because we got to bring all that stuff in. So like the the ends of chapters, the the discourse chapters allowed us to talk about the stuff that we really think matters for the life of faith. doesn’t mean we leave unaddressed some of the more scholarly questions, but we were able to kind of
emphasize why we think these texts are luminous, beautiful, vital voices for the life of faith. And that’s what made it so fun to write and hopefully makes it fun to read or funner to read than, you know, maybe other other ways of of approaching the material.
Dru Johnson (07:23)
Yeah, I think it’s fair to say we have all had textbooks where, especially in undergrad, where you get the book and you kinda look through it and you’re like, what is this book even doing? It’s you know, it’s dry, it’s boring. I wonder, like like even thinking about how you justify that move that the it’s the Big Bang, it it’s like it has all the explosive power of the rest of scripture. Can you just like low hanging fruit, what what are some obvious ways in which the Torah, the Pentateuch
thinks of itself that way if I can personify it. And then maybe how later Hebrews, Jews, and Christians also seem to make that that jump to the Torah being centered for everything they think about.
Michael Rhodes (08:07)
I mean, like there’s probably lots of ways to answer that question. I’d love to hear what Dave thinks, but I mean the one that comes most quickly to mind is just the book of Exodus tells the Old Testament salvation story. And it’s the story not only of how God liberates a people from political and spiritual and social oppression, but liberates a people for service to Yahweh, which is spiritual and political and social and missional.
And I mean, we I think we give the math in the textbook, but like the liberation from Egypt shows up hundreds of times in the old testament. And basically you cannot tell a story in the Bible. I mean, you know, you you come out through the waters, but when you go into the promised land, you gotta go back through the waters. When Isaiah wants to talk about the return from exile, it’s Exodus imagery, Jesus goes through the waters.
In baptism, in Revelation, they’re singing the song of Moses, you know, which is a reference to the song of the sea that they sing at the Exodus. So,
Dru Johnson (09:07)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (09:08)
like that’s just one example of how like this story, which is a more complicated story than we sometimes tell about it, a fuller story about, again, not just liberation from, but liberation for life with God, you know, as his royal priestly family members. But that’s like, you know, no, no.
So that’d be one example chosen from the middle of the Torah.
Dru Johnson (09:32)
Hm.
Yeah, that’s great.
Dave Beldman (09:36)
Yeah. yeah. I mean I I say to my students that the Exodus is like the cross moment for the
Michael Rhodes (09:44)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (09:44)
Old Testament people of God. It’s just so central it makes sense of everything else else. So just to kinda emphasize the point there, Michael. Yeah, and and I think that’s that story starts earlier, right? It
Michael Rhodes (09:58)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (09:59)
The book of Genesis is the book of origins, the origins
Michael Rhodes (10:02)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (10:03)
of all things, the origin of sin, the or the origin of God’s redemptive plan that starts with Abraham and his descendants and and takes a leap in Exodus with the founding of a nation and working then for a time through a nation. So all those things are there in Genesis. And and I think the what what
What really struck me as I was writing this is the formative power of these books.
Michael Rhodes (10:29)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (10:30)
And I mean, all of scripture, may maybe it’s just so obvious to everyone, but these are these texts are formation texts. They are discipleship
Michael Rhodes (10:40)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (10:41)
texts that are trying to form a people for.
partnership with God in his redemption
Michael Rhodes (10:47)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (10:48)
of all things. And that really struck me in the Genesis 12 through 50 chapters that I wrote, seeing how God is is forming for himself a covenant partners in his redemptive plan. And there’s just so much good stuff there. Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (11:05)
And I mean we we picked like the creation and Exodus. I mean, those are obviously covenant, creation covenant. I mean those are like huge themes that may be obvious, but one thing that I found working on this book is that every nook and cranny of the Torah is is dynamite. Like the obscure discussions in numbers of like Levites or like priests in Leviticus, when Paul calls us.
You know, we when we when the New Testament refers to us as priests, when we talk about offering our bodies as living sacrifices, all of a sudden I can’t unsee how that’s all built on this theology of priesthood that you get in the Torah. You know, so I mean, I think the law, you know, the mission of God that God’s people live out God’s reign and way in a way that draws people in. I mean, that’s central to Jesus’ work with the disciples, central to the church. But but you get your first glimpse of that with, you know.
the the Torah and with and with Deuteronomy saying if you live out these statutes and laws, the nations will look over the fence and say that’s what it looks like for God to be present with his people. So I mean all the weird stuff too turns out to be really fun and energizing and vital. and of course that’s true for all of the Bible but I do think the Torah has a unique place in the Bible as kind of the first word, right?
And I do think the canon recognizes that, but also Jews and Christians, to the extent that I understand those traditions, have always looked back to these texts as being particularly important.
Dru Johnson (12:44)
Do you well I and I keep using the word Torah, you’re using Pentateuch here, which we’re referring to the same collection of books, just to be clear. it what were the well, let me rephrase this question. Did you feel the necessity of trying to explain everything? I I cause there’s there’s so much. You have limited pay, I mean, even a even a multi-hundred page book is a very limited space to explain things.
But how did you pick and choose what you explain, what you just go like, don’t nothing to see here. Keep moving, kids.
Dave Beldman (13:22)
That’s a great question. I I think for myself, we’re in a particular cultural moment right now,
Michael Rhodes (13:28)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (13:29)
and it seems like a lot of people are deconstructing and
Michael Rhodes (13:34)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (13:34)
they’ve been told things about the Bible. And then if they go read the Bible, they think, wait, that’s not what I was told about it. So for for
Michael Rhodes (13:42)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (13:43)
myself and being aware of that context and kind of being in that that kind of context.
Just thinking about what what are the kinds of things that need explaining, right? So I’m thinking of the I spent quite a bit of time, Dru You might have read some of this stuff early on, about the the trial by ordeal of the woman who is suspected
Dru Johnson (14:06)
yeah, and numbers, yeah.
Michael Rhodes (14:07)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (14:08)
of of adultery. And that, I mean, it just screams toxic.
Michael Rhodes (14:15)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (14:15)
Right,
from our cultural perspective. So I I think what we wanted to do was just acknowledge, hey, it this really sounds toxic and and kind of allow, I I think that’s where and maybe I’m projecting my own story, but the ability to say, wow, this doesn’t sound right, or it sounds
Michael Rhodes (14:33)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (14:35)
sounds offensive.
Or this is offensive. It is offensive to me and allowing space for students to feel that way and then dig into the text and see what it’s actually saying to see if the offense is the text or a simplistic reading of it or a just a bad reading of it. So I think for myself, my radar was always up for what are the things that are going to my my ideal reader, which is like an undergrad student.
What are they going to be stumbling over? And how can we explain that? So that’s one criteria, anyways.
Michael Rhodes (15:11)
That’s that I love that, Dave. I’d say I I that’s not what I would have said first, but I think it’s so true. I think for me, when I said yes to this project, what got me excited was the opportunity to be involved with people’s first serious study of these texts. Because on the one hand, I think there are a lot of passages that are faith killers in the Torah where people read them and they go, my goodness, if God’s like that. And so we wanted to offer what we think are
From a hermeneutic of trust, like we think this is God’s word. What do we think God’s actually doing, even in the bits that feel icky? and and so that would be one thing. But the other thing is, for me personally, kind of my way back into academic study of the Bible was I felt called by kind of the prophets and Jesus to get involved with community development work. And so my wife and I have been involved with that, you know, living in low-income communities and involved in Christian mission in those areas.
For 18 years, but the questions that keep emerging, they drove me back more and more to the Torah. And that was true in South Memphis. So there’s for me, I really wanted to show God’s vision for economic justice, for welcome to the immigrant, for a a politics of of of goodness and shalom and justice. This is all rooted in the Torah, right? And everything the prophets do, everything Jesus is doing is with reference back to.
this vision. And, you know, since moving to Aotearoa, New Zealand and getting to study the Bible with indigenous Maori people and Pacific Pacific Islander communities, that list of things that like I just can’t unsee has involved a lot more reflection on creation. You know, Christians kind of woken up in my circle is like, we need to steward
Dru Johnson (17:02)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (17:02)
creation or whatever. There’s a lot to that. But
The more interesting bit is that the Torah envisions creation as a character in the drama of God, as as the Torah prescrib describes a world brimming with life and with animals and even the stars and the moon and the earth and the seas all called to obedient participation in God’s world. So, in some ways, like I was kind of driven by this desire to to, like Dave said, address the sort of painful questions that people have.
But also to show that some of the things that our hearts are longing for, a way of life with Christ that is better news for the poor, better news for the world, better news for the outsider, those things too are there in scripture and it and it starts in the Torah. So, you know, maybe if readers aren’t anything like Dave and I, we’ll have hit all the wrong notes.
Dru Johnson (17:54)
Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (17:56)
You know, but I I th I’d like to think that to the extent that we we we kind of are are sort of
I mean, I think we both said several times we were writing the book we wish we’d had when we were nineteen
Dru Johnson (18:06)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (18:07)
or twenty, you know? And so I I guess that that’s probably the how we got there.
Dave Beldman (18:13)
Yeah, and I I think that that’s really good, Michael. I I think the stuff maybe it’s it might be interesting, and I’m sure we’ll hear it in reviews, the stuff that we didn’t explain or the places we didn’t focus on. And some
Michael Rhodes (18:27)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (18:27)
of that stuff I think we’re just not interested in. well, interested in to the extent that it helps us read the text better. And
Dru Johnson (18:34)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (18:34)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (18:35)
and when we think it’s
Too fuzzy to help us read the text, or it’s irrelevant. We’re just not gonna be really dealing with it. But some people might get bent out of shape with the with the stuff we don’t deal with. But then I also think there’s tons of there are tons of books out there that deal with that stuff. So go have
Dru Johnson (18:54)
Okay.
Dave Beldman (18:54)
a look at that. I think we are doing something fairly unique. And also I think there’s
We talk about theological interpretation, and we have a a
Michael Rhodes (19:03)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (19:04)
specific way of thinking about what theological interpretation is. And it really is listening to the text so as to let it speak to the issues of our time. And there’s been a lot of ink on that and and some some real examples of it, but we really wanted
Michael Rhodes (19:20)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (19:21)
to give not only an explanation of the text, but also an unleashing.
I still never got the where that quote came from, Michael, but the maybe you know Dru was at Bruggerman who said, we we don’t need to explain these texts, we just need to unleash them into
Dru Johnson (19:36)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (19:36)
the world. And and I think that’s what we’re doing, but giving some indication on how we unleash it into our culture today so that it speaks powerfully and prophetically.
Michael Rhodes (19:47)
I love that you brought that up. I think all three of us, when we think about theological interpretation, care a lot about that. These the subject and source of these texts is God. but I think we’re probably all three dissatisfied in the way theology and theological interpretation is sometimes done. One of the things that came home to me in a new way that was very powerful, I think it was mainly working with the
You know, the part in Exodus, the Lord, the Lord, the gracious and compassionate one, and thinking about the juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in that text, but also about the way that that text it it it it is a a fuller revelation of God’s mercy than you’ve gotten in Exodus. Like God’s revelation there is actually somewhat different from the first time those themes are treated in Exodus, and then how that self description has this afterlife and the prophets and and
Becomes this kind of lifeline for God’s people. And in the midst of that, I was I was really reminded in a new way that it’s fully legitimate to say, how would we express the theology of this text in a different idiom? That’s a
Dru Johnson (20:57)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (20:57)
totally legitimate exercise. So long as we remember that what the text is trying to do, it believes that this mode of presentation is conducive to that. So narratives.
Do theology as narratives, not because they’re inferior, but because that’s the best way the Bible has to convey this kind of theology. And so what that means is that the rough edges and the weird places are rough and weird for a reason. And I just I personally found that like very spiritually like meaningful. Like I get moved when I edit, when I edited that section of the book because I was having this moment, you know, thinking about God and trying to.
Think about how God presents God in this text about when God presented God to Moses at this moment on a mountain. I mean, it really is quite it’s a beautiful bit of the Bible, you know.
Dru Johnson (21:53)
It’s I mean what you just said there, you kind of said it casually with your little southern accent and made it sound sweet. but it seems to me that’s a very controversial point. One that I agree with, of course, wholeheartedly, but the controversial point that they could have written this another way.
Michael Rhodes (22:10)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (22:11)
sorry I’m I I’ve just been working on Jesus a lot and how Jesus uses the Torah, and I think I have a cheat code there because Jesus has available to him Greco Roman thought.
And Greco-Roman
Michael Rhodes (22:21)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (22:21)
forms of argumentation, but he still does not choose that road. He still chooses narrative poetry, law, and ritual in order to explore. But I guess what would be an example of that that you think is just a clear cut? Here is where they are theologizing with a narrative, and they really do think this is the best way to do it. Do you have particular
Michael Rhodes (22:43)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (22:43)
spots where this seems obvious to you?
Michael Rhodes (22:47)
Well, I don’t have any that are super uncontroversial, I suppose. I mean,
Dru Johnson (22:52)
Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (22:54)
when when I think about like just sticking with that example from Exodus, the Lord, the Lord, the
Dru Johnson (22:58)
Hmm.
Michael Rhodes (22:59)
gracious and compassionate one, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, forgiving iniquities, transgressions, and sins, but by no means clearing the guilty, you know? And students, scholars, like we almost
cannot help ourselves but resolve that juxtaposition of overwhelming mercy and genuine forceful judgment. Like we cannot, we want to resolve it, but the text just leaves it standing there in this sort of juxtaposed thing. And that I think that’s a genuine paradox. I think there is a sense in which the thousand generations of mercy
Show that mercy triumphs judgment, like I think James puts it that way. But there nevertheless there is a juxtaposition, such that, and this is a point that Brent Strawn makes, I think, God’s forceful judgment is an aspect of his merciful goodness. And you think, how do you live that juxtaposition? How you but this is exactly what in the book of the 12 the prophets pick up, right? So Joel goes back to this text facing a crisis in the community of faith and says,
Who knows? Maybe the Lord will show his steadfast love. And it’s easy to make that who knows like more confident than it is. But I think it’s a genuine who knows. We know God is overwhelmingly merciful, yet committed to just judgment. We cast ourselves on that mercy and enjoy they receive it. Few books later, that it’s it’s the Assyrians in the book of Jonah who are going, who knows? Maybe God will be merciful. And in the very next chapter, Jonah’s like, I’m I irate it you, God.
Because there’s too much mercy in this formula for the wrong people, right? So the fact that there Joan is mad because there’s not enough judgment in the paradox.
Dru Johnson (24:50)
Yeah, shout out to
all those people who are still naming their kids Jonah.
Michael Rhodes (24:56)
But then don’t don’t give up on joining yet because you flip over another book, and in the book of Nahum, it’s the judgment side that is gospel. It is good news that God is not re unrelentingly merciful on unrepentant injustice because predatory injustice must be eventually confronted. And when that happens, the people sing a hallelujah song, and it just shows how this this this sort of paradoxical tension, irresolvable tension, just
There in Moses’ encounter on the mountain, where God is overwhelmingly merciful, but there’s bodies on the ground because of his just judgment, you know? That becomes this like paradox that the people return to again and again. It has life in it that it wouldn’t have if it sort of reduced that to kind of a f an algorithm that could be that could be sort of reconciled, as it were. So I I that’s one example.
Dave Beldman (25:47)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (25:47)
And I think yeah.
Michael Rhodes (25:48)
It’s not the narrative exactly, but it it’s the kind of thing that I found myself
sort of awed by, honestly.
Dru Johnson (25:56)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (25:56)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (25:57)
That’s that’s very helpful. I I’m j I’m processing everything through the gospels ’cause I’m teaching classes on the gospels
Michael Rhodes (26:02)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (26:02)
right now, but
Dave Beldman (26:03)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (26:04)
I’m I’m thinking, well, you have the exact same situation with Jesus in the gospel, right? I mean, showing steadfast love of God and and mercy in person, but constantly talking about this day of judgment that’s gonna come and and reconcile every
Michael Rhodes (26:16)
Yes. Yeah, that’s right.
Dru Johnson (26:17)
I it’s just on his lips everywhere he turns. I’m wondering, as you set out to kind of do
the ground clearing and the throat clearing work at the at you know, when you were making your list of what we need to deal with in this book, what were the typical misunderstandings that you run into with students and parishioners that you felt you just needed to absolutely address? I know I heard some style of discourse and and thinking about how you read different types of literature. but were there any like big hurdles you thought we got to get people over these hurdles in order to hear what we’re trying
Michael Rhodes (26:50)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (26:50)
to
Dave Beldman (26:53)
I I can jump in on this and then Michael, I’m sure you have some thoughts. I so one one would be just around li around ritual.
Michael Rhodes (27:03)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (27:04)
and so
Almost feeling the need to kind of clear some ground that ritual is actually okay. And
Dru Johnson (27:10)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (27:10)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (27:11)
in fact, God has made us into ritual beings. And the the rituals that we have are forming us. Dru you’ve
Michael Rhodes (27:17)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (27:18)
you’ve written on this, you you know all this. But I I think that that was really that was a lot of work. We have a discourse chapter on how to read ritual texts, and then
Michael Rhodes (27:29)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (27:30)
you know, we’ve got all of Leviticus, two chapters on Leviticus, and
Yeah. So I I think also and related to this is this so any any students who are somewhat theologically aware have this like threefold view of the law.
Dru Johnson (27:50)
Hmm.
Dave Beldman (27:51)
so
Dru Johnson (27:51)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (27:52)
you know, there’s the moral law, those the civil law, and there’s the ceremonial law. So I go after that in a text box. So it’s not in the main, but it’s in a text box. I think Michael, I said I convinced you said I convinced you on that one. But so the the challenge with with
Dru Johnson (28:06)
Wait, wait, wait, hold on a second.
Did Mike still buy into the the tripartite view of the law? Let’s get this on the table,
Dave Beldman (28:12)
I don’t know.
Michael Rhodes (28:14)
I I
Dru Johnson (28:15)
Mike.
Michael Rhodes (28:16)
I continue to find it a hermeneutically useful way of thinking about the appropriation of the law. But I
Dru Johnson (28:23)
Okay.
Michael Rhodes (28:23)
I I I am con I’m convinced. I I appreciate I think it’s funny ’cause like on that one in particular, Dave, I think you come from a like we’re both Presbyterian well, we’re both reformed in our orientations, but you come from like the land where people are like really reformed. And so like people like like you like
You you you know that people can overdo that. Whereas like in my context, we’ve got more theonomists we’re dealing with. Like we need some we need some tools
Dave Beldman (28:52)
Right, yeah.
Michael Rhodes (28:53)
to say.
Dru Johnson (28:54)
Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (28:54)
So I think I I I find some of those distinctions still helpful for understanding kind of like how we might appropriate some of this stuff. But you’re absolutely right that as like hard edge things, they’re used to dismiss the the the wisdom and the teaching and the instruction. That’s what I loved in that text box, as you said.
Yeah, for a variety of reasons, Christians don’t follow these laws all the same way, but they are all witnesses and teaching to us in in profound ways. So I loved that.
Dave Beldman (29:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, as a side note, I I think Michael and my different context and kind of a little bit like overlapping but different perspectives really made this a better book. I I don’t know. I think we we kind of
Michael Rhodes (29:38)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (29:39)
kept each other in check on on some things and just sharpened each other as well.
Michael Rhodes (29:41)
Well you f you figure out what you you you
worry about different things, don’t you? And so you kind of it’s like a good exercise, yeah.
Dave Beldman (29:46)
Exactly, exactly.
so in in that way of seeing the law and and this is this is what I I am baffled by. So
I guess maybe people are reading Leviticus, maybe they’re not, but they know what Leviticus is about. that’s like the ceremonial law, and it’s really
Michael Rhodes (30:01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dave Beldman (30:02)
all about Jesus’ sacrifice, and that was fulfilled on the cross. And now, you know, we don’t have to think about that or really attend to it. And I I think we want to say, well, wait a minute. I mean, what what is it? Dru two of the laws are about sin, and not really any of them are about intentional sin. So how can this be about Jesus’ atonement, atoning sacrifice?
sacrifice on the on the cross. there’s a lot more going on there and
Michael Rhodes (30:29)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (30:30)
we’re missing out on a lot as we see and this this is kind of our our paradigm for thinking through the law. How how is Israel putting on flesh of
the this basic command, love God with everything you have and love your neighbor on your as yourself. And how, how does that get enfleshed in Israel? And how how are the laws setting boundaries with within this ancient Near Eastern context for Israel in their time and place and
Michael Rhodes (30:57)
Hm.
Dave Beldman (30:57)
and dealing with their the matters in their culture to make them a countercultural display nation? And then from that move, I think we get in a we get put in a very good place to say, okay, what does that look like
Like as we enflesh the wisdom and instruction that we find in the law or the rituals.
Dru Johnson (31:17)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think you’re highlighting what what we all often see in various sectors of the church where people set up a system they s they they read the old testament in such a way that that allows them to see it as a series of tick boxes that get
Michael Rhodes (31:36)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (31:36)
you to Jesus. So as soon as you tick the box, you don’t really need the box anymore. You can
Michael Rhodes (31:39)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (31:40)
kind of set it in the past. And and obviously even the prophets are used that way of they’re you know, they’re all just here to tell us about Jesus coming.
Michael Rhodes (31:47)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (31:47)
which is true as well is both true and reductionistic in some ways.
Dave Beldman (31:53)
Yeah, and I do
Michael Rhodes (31:53)
Well I think
Dave Beldman (31:54)
think that is yeah, sorry, Michael, I do think that
Michael Rhodes (31:56)
No, go ahead.
Dave Beldman (31:56)
is another another thing that we are combating. So I mean, of course it’s a good impulse to see Jesus
in the Pentateuch and wanting to see Jesus in the Pentateuch and and finding ways to do that. I like the Jesus Storybook Bible. Every story whispers his name. It doesn’t mean every story is shouting from the rooftops his name and sometimes it’s
Michael Rhodes (32:19)
Hm.
Dave Beldman (32:19)
subtle. And I I think sometimes our way of seeing Jesus in the Pentateuch in the church is far too simplistic and not really what the text is doing at all. And and there are other ways of doing it that I mean just pop pop.
we don’t have to look for him. He just just jumps off the page.
Michael Rhodes (32:39)
I have lots of thoughts about this. I just want to say, so
Dru Johnson (32:43)
Well, it’s a it’s under an hour podcast, so
Michael Rhodes (32:46)
I just want to say very quickly, I think, and I can’t remember if we said this, I hope we did, but I think that one issue with saying you go to the old testament looking for Jesus is it takes it for granted that we’ve got a firm grasp on Christ. And so
Dru Johnson (33:01)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (33:01)
we go to the Old Testament looking for a pattern that we already understand. Whereas I think we don’t get Christ.
We don’t understand Christ. Christ is always beyond us, more drawing us out beyond. And r reading the old testament helps us see who Christ actually is. and and that is because, from my perspective, Jesus is the place where the God story and the human story and the Israel story all come together in one place. And so everything the Bible tells us about God helps us see Jesus.
Everything the Bible tells us about what humans are meant to be tells us about Jesus. And everything the Bible, and this is the one that I think gets missed, everything that tells everything the Bible says about the vocation of Israel tells us about Jesus because he is God. he is the human one, but he is also Israel in the flesh. He you know, I think probably the technical term is we focus on the discrete witness of the old testament or something. That might be the nerdy way to put it. But I
What I have found in class is by really going, please look at what this text is trying to say about God, that it helps people see God, including as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, including Christ, God in the flesh, you know, and so
Dave Beldman (34:29)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (34:30)
I do think that that is a thing that will surprise some people who pick up on our
Our theological orientation to the text and our commitment, which are quite I would call sort of conservative orthodox kind of you know what we would call in the past evangelical. I don’t know if Dave, Dave may want to drop that one. I’m I’m okay with it. but we don’t race to Jesus in the way that a lot of writing about the old testament from that perspective does. And and that’s intentional. And I hope it’s a I hope it’s a strength, you know.
Dru Johnson (35:06)
Yeah, and it it you know, it can be a a form of a rookie mistake when you just as they say, go looking for Jesus under every rock. And it sounds to me like you’re thinking what are the what are the patterns that are established in which Jesus fits and where
Michael Rhodes (35:20)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (35:20)
he pushes the boundaries of those patterns into you know, the something more than Abraham, the something more than Solomon is here.
Michael Rhodes (35:24)
Yes, yes,
Dru Johnson (35:26)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (35:27)
Yeah,
Michael Rhodes (35:27)
totally.
Dave Beldman (35:27)
yeah.
I I mean if we if you think about what is the major theme of Jesus’ ministry, it’s the kingdom of God. And
Michael Rhodes (35:36)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (35:37)
I still remember doing my work on judges and Robert Bowling of all people in the Anchor Bible Dictionary or Bible commentary on judges, I still remember it’s page ninety nine. I I can see where it is on the page. It was one of those that just blew my mind. He said that Israel
in according to the Sinai Covenant is the earthly nucleus of the kingdom of God.
Michael Rhodes (35:57)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (35:58)
And and so I I think that that is true. And then the question becomes what kind of kingdom do we see displayed or or in envisioned in the Sinai Covenant, in
Michael Rhodes (36:10)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (36:11)
in the law codes, in Deuteronomy, in the in the rituals. The kingdom of God is it it it’s kind of the the subtext of
and sometimes it’s the
Michael Rhodes (36:20)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (36:21)
it’s the actual text. But if we think of
Michael Rhodes (36:23)
That’s another great
Dave Beldman (36:24)
Israel, yeah, Israel is the earthly nucleus of the kingdom of God and God is building that kingdom or or envisioning that kingdom coming through Israel.
Michael Rhodes (36:34)
And that’s another example, Dave, where we also think we understand the mission of God. We think we understand the church. And and but actually, the Torah shows us, I think it’s Sandy Richter who uses the language of of like the kingdom incarnated a time and place in a mitzvah culture or something like that. And that’s really helpful, especially paired with, and this goes back to a question you asked earlier, Dru, what do we really need to help people get? And there are a lot of genre.
Issues when we read the Torah, one of the biggest ones being law. In addition to the things that Dave said, I mean, I think we say this in the book that your book is the best short, simple introduction to biblical law that we know of. But we have a chapter
Dru Johnson (37:15)
Stop it.
Michael Rhodes (37:18)
on how to read biblical law that’s even shorter. and so
Dru Johnson (37:23)
Therefore
it could have all been said more succinctly, right?
Michael Rhodes (37:26)
No, but but the point is like we see like the idea that law as a genre sometimes is seeking to limit pervasive evil rather than to eliminate it. The idea that law as a genre is a form in the that all law as a genre sometimes is aspirational, like a moral ceiling, but often is providing a moral floor. You know, so one thing I always say to my students is stuff like, hey, the fact that New Zealand government taxes tobacco at an enormously high rate.
But doesn’t outlaw it does not mean they like tobacco. In fact, it’s the opposite. But they’ve deemed that law as a genre often is limiting pervasive evil rather than seeking to eliminate it. That is relevant for how you deal with these legal texts. But of course, as you know, the other surprise for Old Testament law is that it’s not statutory law. It’s not providing a legalistic requirement that a judge would be forced.
To implement in many cases. It’s it’s it’s providing something like wise precedent for the entire community to figure out what wisdom and justice and righteousness require at particular times and places. So once you get that, then all of a sudden these obscure texts like, you know, return the the ox of the guy who hates you when you find it become absolutely explosive, you know, like the Goring Ox law becomes a way of reflecting on.
Ways we’re responsible for harm caused by our economic life when we’re not around. Good gracious, is that something we need to reflect on? You know, so I think the genre things, we’re constantly saying we tend to read it this way, but if we read it this way, it the power of the text is unleashed in a new way.
Dave Beldman (39:14)
Yeah, which I mean you’re talking there about the paradigmatic nature of
Michael Rhodes (39:18)
Yes, yes.
Dave Beldman (39:19)
of law, which you know, which is another reason why the threefold use of the law isn’t the most helpful,
Michael Rhodes (39:25)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (39:26)
because that that those those ox laws are
Michael Rhodes (39:28)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (39:28)
considered civil law, which
Michael Rhodes (39:30)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (39:31)
I guess there’s there’s wisdom there, but I love to teach this paradigmatic approach to the
Michael Rhodes (39:36)
Yes.
Dave Beldman (39:36)
law using the ox laws because everyone who has a simplistic view of Old Testament law just says, I don’t have an oxen.
So I’m good. Whereas
Michael Rhodes (39:44)
Yeah. Yes.
Dru Johnson (39:45)
Right.
Dave Beldman (39:46)
the paradigmatic view of the law says, no, you are still bound by the by the the instruction, the God’s heart behind these laws. And that that is explosive stuff for sure.
Dru Johnson (39:59)
And the the the ox laws are
Michael Rhodes (39:59)
And that’s exactly right.
Dru Johnson (40:00)
fun because they I don’t did you guys have you ever looked at the actual Sumerian ox laws? It’s just a collection of laws that are just about oxen.
Michael Rhodes (40:08)
Not in detail.
Dru Johnson (40:09)
yeah, so it’s a super fun list. And and also so what the Exodus does with it and beyond is fun because it is one of those r not rare instances, but it is one of those instances where you can almost directly apply it to modern American life because you say, Okay, you don’t have an ox, but do you have a large
dangerous thing that you own that if you don’t tend to it and take care of it, it could break out and kill people. And I mean I say that in class and every student they’re like, I have a car like a car. Like you got to keep the brakes in check. You got to keep everything in check. And so it’s it’s almost directly translatable. I do want to before I have to hang up with you guys, I I I want to do what I would do if I if I pick this book up off the shelf. I have not received my copy yet, but I’m looking forward to just tearing through it.
Literally just tearing it apart.
Michael Rhodes (41:01)
That’s not I you you can’t say that’s not how I would have done it, because you could have done it, Dru. So
Dru Johnson (41:05)
Yeah, that’s true. I have no excuse. No, I
Dave Beldman (41:06)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (41:08)
I’m gonna do what all biblical scholars do on something that they’re, you know, interested in is they just start going to the passages and just say, How are they gonna deal with this passage? How do they deal with this passage? So really quickly, almost like a speed round. This isn’t on script, but a speed round. I I have some passages. I’m just interested, A, do you deal with them? And then B, like what’s your your your hot take for us here? so the first one, and Mike already knows this is coming, the Temple in Eden.
Do you guys go down that road?
Michael Rhodes (41:38)
we do. There’s a there’s a box. I think we talk about there’s a box about how I can’t remember if we used temple or sanctuary, Dru, which I know is a big deal for you, but how there is some evidence in Genesis that creation is envisioned as God’s construction of sacred space, and that this is certainly a theme that gets picked up elsewhere in the Bible. and we give some references in the prophets and Job and Proverbs and whatever.
So we do talk about it, but it’s not a major theme, I don’t think.
Dru Johnson (42:09)
So it’s not the the central Edenist sanctuary that determines everything else. okay. Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (42:16)
But I do think what what I like
about that approach
Dave Beldman (42:18)
Stop judging
us, Dru. Come on, take it easy.
Michael Rhodes (42:21)
What I do like about
Dru Johnson (42:21)
No, that’s
Michael Rhodes (42:22)
that approach is that I d I absolutely think and I think we say this in several places that the biblical story is an Emmanuel story. It’s a God with us story.
Dru Johnson (42:31)
Hm. Yes.
Michael Rhodes (42:33)
And to the extent that sacred space is materially conceptualized in in an in the ancient world, describing creation is somehow the construction of sacred space makes a lot of sense.
Dru Johnson (42:43)
Yeah.
Agree. I so I’ve been spending some time with Divine World Council people lately. So I’m wondering what you do with Nephilim and the Sons of God. That would be in Deuteronomy and also Genesis. Do you guys address that?
Michael Rhodes (42:59)
we do a little bit. Okay, so can I give my hot take on this? Like I so I I I I’ve been listening to some of your stuff with the with the with the divine counsel people.
Dru Johnson (43:12)
Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (43:13)
I’m I I haven’t listened to all of it, so I don’t want to give all I’m not I’m not gonna respond to that. What I’m gonna say is I I certainly find the idea that that the heavenly realm is more populated than has sometimes been projected.
By the language monotheism, I mean, I think everybody should agree with that, right?
Dru Johnson (43:31)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (43:32)
there are spiritual beings of various sorts. the way those beings are described and the the genre of literature, I think, raises really important challenges to reading straight from many of these texts to kind of like what would be a sort of ontology of the universe or something. What I think is most interesting about the Nephilim and Genesis is.
Is I absolutely think they’re portrayed as spiritual beings. Like I think that’s the most common and ancient and whatever else. I think they are crossing boundaries. So this is sin. And what I think is interesting is that this is the only story I’m aware of where the spiritual fall happens after the human story. So if you think about all the creation myths that you’ve heard, so much of the action happens in the heavenly realms. Certainly in ancient Near Eastern cosmogenes.
People come onto the scene late in the game. Things have already gotten bad and conflictual and whatever. And we want to read Genesis that way because we want the snake to be the devil. And and and obviously, like we almost can’t think the story without saying, Well, surely there are hostile, rebellious spiritual forces before the fall in Genesis three. Maybe. But what the sure. But the way Genesis tells the story is spiritual beings aren’t implicated.
In the disaster until humans rebel. I think that is very different than the typical way of stelling the how did the world come to be story. And I wish people paid more attention to that. Because I think the Bible is making a really strong claim that God really did give humanity this unique role of being able to be conduits of blessing or conduits of curses. And even spiritual disaster is somehow.
unleashed by our rebellion. And I think that is a profound point. Feel free to come back at me at that if you think I’m wrong. But that’s what I remember gesturing towards.
Dru Johnson (45:31)
We don’t have time. This is gonna be a hot take, so
I can I can I can agree with everything you said and still have diverging thoughts on spiritual creatures. Like I I think there’s a lot of overlap in what we would all agree upon. so that’s good. I’m interested interested in what you do with the Akedah, the binding of Isaac, the sacrif the attempted sacrifice of Isaac, ’cause that’s such a a difficult text.
Dave Beldman (45:55)
man, that’s one of mine. I thought I was gonna dodge a bullet there for a minute.
Dru Johnson (45:58)
Ha ha ha.
Dave Beldman (46:00)
yeah, so and and I have to also remember what I wrote about this stuff.
Dru Johnson (46:05)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (46:07)
so I I I think the key thing that is interesting in what I learned about the Abraham narrative is it does seem to be set up as a series of human and divine interactions. So divine interaction.
encounters between God and and Abraham and there’s seven of them. And and the Akedah is the seventh, seven, or or is the seventh of of these seven encounters. And what’s interesting and and this this may kind of respond to your question about how narrative works because you know you can you know we’re
Westminster Conva Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism has a lot to say about covenant and how covenants work and all that sort of stuff. But it’s nothing like reading these seven divine encounters and how God is and and Abraham are are doing this dance and
Michael Rhodes (47:07)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (47:07)
how this partnership develops more more intimately and more dynamically.
Michael Rhodes (47:13)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (47:13)
I think
I think Abraham doesn’t talk till maybe the third or fourth divine encounter. and and he he starts arguing with God.
Dru Johnson (47:21)
And then only to question. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Beldman (47:24)
Yeah. which which I love I and I got all this from Paul Borger. Borgman? Borger? Genesis, the story we haven’t heard. And so
He he he says about the arguing, Abraham argues with God and God likes it. So this is that like genuine partnership that God is forging. And he says about the Akidah that,
You know, there’s interesting language here that kind of explodes our theology as well. So because you did this, now I know. And and because of this, now I will do this thing that I said I was gonna do. And Borgman says, you know, how I wonder how many ancient Near Eastern people God got to the point, to the seventh encounter.
Dru Johnson (48:21)
Hm.
Dave Beldman (48:22)
And they failed the test and he looked for somebody else. Now, again, I I love that, but it’s obviously speculation. But so I I don’t think we probably I dealt with that passage in a way that really maybe satisfies all the
all the questions and all the ink that has been spilt on this particular passage. But what I tried to do was see it in the t the context of the larger the the larger narrative of God forging this partnership with with Abraham. And this is the pinnacle of it. And I don’t know,
Dru Johnson (48:59)
Hm.
Dave Beldman (48:59)
come back at me with that. But
Dru Johnson (49:01)
No, I mean it’s it’s you know, like what can you do in a few pages on the Akada? It’s it’s it’s an impossible assignment, right? other than to introduce students to like some of the difficulties and some of the opportunities. so
Dave Beldman (49:13)
Yes, and
Michael Rhodes (49:13)
Well and
I think that’s
Dave Beldman (49:14)
I think that is a
passage we had a a breakout text on as well.
Dru Johnson (49:17)
Okay.
Michael Rhodes (49:18)
Yeah, because I think it’s a great example of how to read narratives in the sense that there’s all these gaps in the story,
Dru Johnson (49:23)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (49:24)
you know. when Abraham the one that always gets me is when Abraham says, I and the boy will return. What is that? Is that is he lying to the servants because he can’t
Dru Johnson (49:29)
Right. What is he thinking? Yeah.
Michael Rhodes (49:33)
li or does or or is he a hero of faith? And within these gaps, this text continues as y as you guys know, it’s a problem text sometimes for contemporary readers, I mean
In the tradition, it continues to generate enormously profound theological reflection, all rooted in close attention to the text. And I think we have a call-out box where we say, like, here’s three or four contemporary, you know, Ellen Davis, Levinson, Middleton, you know, that are all
Dru Johnson (50:01)
yeah, yeah.
Michael Rhodes (50:02)
all rooted in these in these observations. And and you know, I mean, Chris Wright wrote that book, The God I Don’t Understand. And I I do think I think this is Herman Bavink said mystery is the lifeblood of theological.
Reflection.
Dave Beldman (50:16)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (50:17)
And when I think of things like that, you know, how do we read the you know, now I know kind of stuff? And Dru, I know you’ve thought about this. but when we wrote the chapter on kind of how to read the Pentateuch, and what does it mean to read theologically? It was helpful for me to just say on the one hand, we have to agree with Calvin that in scripture God lisps to us like a
Dru Johnson (50:39)
Mm.
Michael Rhodes (50:39)
nurse to a child, right? God stoops.
And at the same time, God genuinely speaks. And so that creates this like room for mystery and nuance and ambiguity that is the lifeblood of theological reflection, not the problem to be solved in our theology, you know.
Dru Johnson (51:03)
That’s the exact phrase I was thinking, the problem to be solved. Which n not to like pull the old, but that is a very American way of thinking about the world, right? Here’s a problem, let’s
Michael Rhodes (51:13)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (51:13)
solve it. It’s not just American, but it that that feels very natural to us. Here’s a passage I don’t understand. Let’s find some ease from my duress.
Michael Rhodes (51:22)
But you know, like when we are wrestling with things like like divine sovereignty and human freedom, which is this thing that seems to be paradoxally juxtaposed throughout scripture, like imagine if you resolved it. Like that would be terrible. Like like there there there there is like a
Dru Johnson (51:36)
Right You you can’t some people have. They have figured it out.
Michael Rhodes (51:42)
the the thing were the theology works. I mean, I I used this analogy early on in the book talking about which is way out over my skis, but
This analogy that I remember from my university astronomy class that, you know, light is a particle and a wave. And it shouldn’t be able to be that. And we don’t know how it works, but we can do stuff with it. And so to say light acts like a particle and a wave is not contradictory. It’s not irrational. It’s a paradox, a useful paradox that is irresolvable. And it seems to me that that is the nature of much speech about God. It presents us with
Paradoxes, not because they’re contradictions, but because how could the God who’s who sits on high, whose thoughts are not our thoughts, speak any other way? And yet God’s word does not come back empty. It accomplishes the purposes for which he speaks it. And that means these generative paradoxes are generative. They are useful. They are transformative. Yeah. Hopefully that makes it sound too wishy-washy, but we think that’s what it’s doing, you know?
Dru Johnson (52:45)
And they might even be the the true the Yeah, no. I and I
I would even say it it take a riffing on what you’re saying is it might be the case that this is the truest thing that we can say.
Michael Rhodes (52:58)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (53:00)
and and that
Dave Beldman (53:00)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (53:01)
yeah, and I’m obviously we’re all very interested in the boundaries that you put up how where where do you push beyond these boundaries and speculate? Okay, one final word and then I’ll I’ll let you guys free for the rest of your morning and evening.
I A Michael, you know, since you are in the future, you are in we Dave and I are in Tuesday, but you have broken into Wednesday over there in Kiwi Land. Maybe maybe you’ll have some insights
Michael Rhodes (53:25)
That’s right. It’s very bright. Your future is bright.
Dru Johnson (53:29)
for us that we can’t currently gain on our side of the timeline. But I’m just want you it’s a huge project you guys undertook, and I would imagine that there are just some things going across the entire Pentateuch trying to like mete it out.
for others so that they can come along with you. That you probably had some new insights or you appreciated things anew. if you if you saw things that you would not have seen unless you did this project, I guess I’d be interested in hearing.
Michael Rhodes (53:58)
Certainly for me, most of it was along the lines of of what I just said. You know, like for years, I would have described myself as like a practitioner of theological interpretation. my PhD dissertation was sort of theological ethics and biblical interpretation, so a form of theological interpretation. I’m an ordained Presbyterian who I hope does actual biblical studies work. So, like there’s this conversation with theology and scripture.
But I’d never really sat down and thought about what does it mean to read the Bible theologically? And so I I think I wrote most of the opening chapter, How to Read the Pentateuch Well. And there’s a significant section in there that’s thinking theologically about theological interpretation. And yeah, so this idea that it’s not.
Because you know, people who study Bible for a living often act like the history and the literature side is the real stuff and the theology comes afterward.
Dru Johnson (54:58)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (54:59)
And I so appreciated being reminded that the source and subject matter of the Bible is God. And that means theology is indigenous to these texts and their interpretation. But then to really try to think about what does that mean for the nature of this kind of language, you know? So
I had never done actual research on like, for instance, thinking about like this idea that you just brought up of of or do you didn’t, but it’s a similar one in Genesis where God regrets, you know? What does it mean for God to regret? So this idea that like because God is infinitely higher than us, his regret is not exactly like my regret. And at the same time that because we are creatures made in God’s image, my regret and God’s regret are not utterly discontinuous.
Dru Johnson (55:50)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Rhodes (55:50)
And that
the truth of who God is and who I am lives between these two poles somewhere. I have found that to be like a very liberating way of reading the Bible because you’re not when you run into stuff where God seems like
Too human. You don’t have to freak out about it. But you can like let that really and when you run into places where God seems like too beyond us, you don’t have to freak out at it. You know, there it I don’t know, like thinking about reading the when I when we started the project, I was like really bummed by the title. Like we’re gonna spend three years and the title’s gonna be this boring, you know, reading the body the whole title. It’s like, can we not find something sexier? But in the end.
Like really thinking about that side. What does it mean to read this as Christian scripture? What does it mean to read theologically? it was that kind of hermeneutical work that has really
invigorated my teaching of these texts and all the other texts I get to teach and my own thinking about God and thinking about God’s word.
Dru Johnson (56:54)
Awesome. Dave, did you have any insights
Dave Beldman (56:56)
Yeah, I mean
Dru Johnson (56:57)
whatsoever?
Dave Beldman (56:58)
No, I mean I knew it all. It was just kind of getting it down on paper, you know.
Dru Johnson (57:00)
Yeah.
Dave Beldman (57:06)
No, I I I agree one hundred percent with what Michael said there and just you know, the discipline of having to deal with these texts. I I
Michael Rhodes (57:14)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (57:15)
you know, I’ve I’ve taught the Pentateuch as
you know, a third year undergrad course over the course of 13 weeks. And what what does that give you? Like a couple of weeks for each of the books? So you can just skirt over a lot of stuff. Now, there’s only so much you can do in a in a book this size, but you you can’t hide either from it. And so it’s it’s been fun to
To really have to wrestle with these texts. I I I have loved working with Michael at
Michael Rhodes (57:46)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (57:47)
just just because the way he it inspires me to think about the this living text and how it
you know, plays out in politics and economics and care
Michael Rhodes (57:57)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (57:57)
for the poor and immigrants and that that was just and and I think we to be able to work out those kinds of examples for today in a way it it’s almost like what we talked about with Jesus. It just you know
We don’t have to search for Jesus. If we do the right kind of reading, he’ll he’ll pop out. He’ll he’ll just be there. And and I think these these kinds of theolog what we’re calling theological readings, they don’t take a lot of work to say what are the implications if we’re listening to them well.
Michael Rhodes (58:30)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (58:30)
so that that’s been fun. I mean, I wrote the numbers chapters during COVID, and it I mean, that context and that text just was so I mean it was a rich text to help me think about and navigate
Michael Rhodes (58:44)
Mm.
Dave Beldman (58:45)
through this liminal space that was, you know, the the lockdowns and whatever. yeah, yeah.
Dru Johnson (58:53)
Hm. Well, doctors David Beldman and Michael Rhodes, thank you very much for your wisdom.
Michael Rhodes (58:59)
Great to be with Dru.
Dave Beldman (58:59)
Thanks, Dru.
