Dru Johnson (00:00)
With all the ways that we hear technology is ruining us,
Is there a good use of the tech that surrounds us? Well, in this episode, we’re going to talk to Dr. Felicia Song. She’s a sociologist and she works at the interface of how people exist in the world with technology and how that shapes them, both as individuals and groups. In this discussion, we’re gonna talk about some of the standard problems with discussions about AI, some of the places they go wrong, but also
creating a positive imagination about human interactions that don’t require tech, while also being responsible in the ways that we might use tech, not just with AI right now, but future versions of tech that we can’t even conceive of yet. If you like what you’ve been listening to on this podcast.
You can give us a rating at the typical places you find your podcast. You can also subscribe and like here on the YouTube channel. And if you want to give to the efforts, if you like this enough to actually pull money out of your pocket and give to us, we would appreciate that at thebibiblicalmind.org/slash give. Now on to our program.
Felicia Song (01:02)
I think it’s it’s definitely an intro it’s interesting observation that you make that I I’m writing into an area that is getting saturated. it certainly wasn’t the case ten, fifteen years ago.
Dru Johnson (01:17)
Yeah.
Felicia Song (01:18)
it was it was a a category of thinking and writing that felt a bit
I don’t know. people either wanted to talk about digital technology only or they wanted to talk about being human only.
Dru Johnson (01:42)
Yeah.
Felicia Song (01:42)
and it just wasn’t it wasn’t I don’t know, it wasn’t where it is now. And so yeah, I think it’s it’s great, it’s exciting that so many different people have gotten to a place where they recognize the need.
to talk about this very important area that clearly most of society has and and the world has has had some kind of formative experience in which they feel the the shaping pressures of of our digital world. Now as to the less helpful ways I I tend to
think that addressing the hype
Dru Johnson (02:34)
Mm.
Felicia Song (02:36)
is often I think it’s necessary to name when there is industry hype and when there is
Kind of
outsized fervor about new technologies and what they’re capable of doing. But I think getting too bent out of shape about it too early
Dru Johnson (03:02)
Mm.
Felicia Song (03:02)
can be can add to the anxiety that some people already feel and and if folks were watching what was happening in the world in the early two thousands
it’s like
We kind of did this earlier with the rise of the digital economy and the dot-com boost. So like it’s it’s understandable, but it’s also something that we’ve done before. So we should kind of keep it keep kind of a sane level of of like let’s things are gonna play out. It’s not it’s not necessarily gonna work out the way that the industry says it is.
or the fearmongers are saying it’s gonna be, let’s keep a level head. And it’s not quite the time to throw everything out the window and it’s not quite the time to embrace everything either, right?
Dru Johnson (04:00)
Mm.
Felicia Song (04:01)
there has to be a more
I think what’s helpful to people is a more considered and a historical even, as I’m already kind of moving the way I’m moving, I think a a historical perspective is is really helpful when we’re encountering new things.
Dru Johnson (04:25)
Yeah.
Felicia Song (04:26)
and and so to to speak a historically I think is to do
all of ourselves a disservice for what we’ve lived through already. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Some of us have lived.
Dru Johnson (04:40)
What some of us have lived through. I mean, I that
that’s a refreshing insight that I don’t think many people I’ve never heard anybody make that insight before. but it it brought to my I mean, I remember when I was in the military and a friend of mine who was in college was telling me about the internet and trying to explain it to me. And I it took a while, right? Because I was just like, Well, why wouldn’t you just
Felicia Song (05:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Dru Johnson (05:04)
go grab a book? Why would you go on a computer and look
Felicia Song (05:06)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (05:07)
that up, you know?
and then I remember it took me a long time to figure out how are they funding all of this? And how would you ever make money off a thing like this? This just seems like such a weird, like the the the economic model didn’t make any sense. And and so, you know, I I grew up in the or I guess I was aging in the eighties and nineties, where I’ve watched this cycle. So that feels very like, yeah, we have been through this before. We’ve been through iterations of this before.
I think w it it’s not entirely true because I know there was a theology tied to the world wide web and the democr democratization of knowledge that was hoped for that naively evaporated. And but I think also one thing that you see or you hear reports of is that that hype is not just perversely incentivized like market engineering. There also is a version of that hype that actually is teleological. It’s imagining like a
new
Felicia Song (06:05)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (06:06)
age.
Felicia Song (06:07)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (06:08)
with a new type of humanity. so I wonder if
Felicia Song (06:11)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (06:11)
that differentiates this or maybe that’s just again different iteration of the same thing.
Felicia Song (06:16)
Yeah, no, that’s fair. I think there’s definitely a segment of the population and of those who are thinking in this area who are who are very invested in the possibilities of of humans evolving
Dru Johnson (06:41)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (06:41)
in particular ways. and that’s both
folks that are within the industry and folks outside of it looking in. and so, you know, I ha I have to confess it’s an area that just it hasn’t interested me very much.
Dru Johnson (07:04)
Fair enough.
Felicia Song (07:06)
mainly because I think in the end of the day, I’m mainly animated
by questions of how we navigate what we have right like like the with the with the given life that and the given time that we have to live, how do we live well and how d especially how do we live in relation to others?
and in relation to ourselves. And technology just happens to be the variable for me.
Dru Johnson (07:52)
Mm.
Felicia Song (07:53)
the one that I see as being important for us to address, deeply formative in this particular time. something that for like I said, ten, fifteen years ago, nobody seemed to really want to talk about. But
that seemed like a mistake to me.
Dru Johnson (08:15)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (08:16)
it just seemed like, we’re missing something and we’ve we’ve adopted a lot of practices that we aren’t really thinking a whole lot about. We don’t know how to talk about it with each other, either, you know, in in these kinds of dyadic conversations or more collective organizational
Dru Johnson (08:39)
Yeah yeah.
Felicia Song (08:39)
spaces, right? And that it seemed like that
that that was a problem. Like we should really be more intentional in becoming aware and knowing how to talk about it in ways that are not simply do we do this or not? You know, on or off.
Dru Johnson (08:58)
Right.
Felicia Song (08:58)
is this good or bad? But rather or is this sinful or not sinful, right? but something much more
with an imagination that is much more capable of reaching into our phenomenological experience of interacting with devices and interacting with each other through devices, right? like what’s actually happening to us and what is happening to my twenty four hour cycle that I get to live each day when
I think I’m doing the same tasks that I was before, but now it’s mediated, you know, I’m working, I’m engaging with family and friends, I’m shopping. Right, these are things that people have done for a long time, but somehow I’m doing it in a way that’s different. And how is that difference is does that difference matter, right? Like is is that doing something else to me when I’m shopping online or talking with my family members online, etc.?
Dru Johnson (10:08)
Yeah. the the doing something to me, I I’ve written quite a bit on ritual and ritual thought and scripture and and beyond
Felicia Song (10:14)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (10:16)
and you know, for today maybe even and you know, Sherry Turkle has this famous quote, our tools shape us. and I always wonder what exactly people mean by the us. like so are we talking
Felicia Song (10:29)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (10:30)
like cyborgically being our neurology being rewired? Are we talking about
For lack of a better word, our soul being retrained in some way. Or what what do you when you say it affects us, like what’s what do you think those effects tangibly might be?
Felicia Song (10:47)
Yeah, I tend to I like I’m I’m super fascinated by the neurological, you know, the biological effects. that is always kind of stunning and bracing all at the same time to
Dru Johnson (11:03)
Mm. Right.
Felicia Song (11:04)
consider. I think I tend to be drawn to a much more
like I mentioned before, a much more phenomenological experience, right? and so, sociologists like Rosa, you know, who’s come out with resonance and uncontrollability of the world, right? He he has this perspective that is getting at a very felt
experience, right? Like like what is what is sh the sheer
felt it difference that I feel in my body, in even in like the way I’m cognitively processing the fact that you and I aren’t in the same room that I’m talking to you and you are very small box right now, right? In my line of vision. And even though I’m so thankful that I get to talk to you, it is clearly going to be like I’m experiencing it very differently.
from what it would be like if we were in the same room together. And so what does that mean? Does it matter? Like what what matters, what doesn’t matter,
Dru Johnson (12:21)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (12:22)
so to speak. and so and again, similarly, you know, does it what does it mean that
I might have a line of work that requires me to engage a screen for most of my day and I don’t go outside. and I don’t actually walk and see other human beings that I don’t intend to see. neighbors, people driving by. Like what does that do to me as a human being?
in a deep level. And and that’s, you know, that’s a question that isn’t that is just one drop in a a a much larger span of you know, we could talk about that in in in the context of modernity, right?
Dru Johnson (13:22)
Right.
Felicia Song (13:22)
right a and and and really expand the historical, you know, like timeline that we’re looking at. but I think
when I say us, I am interested in a felt experience and and maybe what I’ll do is I’ll put a little footnote here and say that one of the things I’m increasingly aware of and not sure exactly what I should do about is the fact that I think
What for a long time I felt was a universal felt experience. Humans feel this, is something that is getting problematized and certainly in my field of sociology, there’s a lot of literature and theorizing on how our felt experiences are deeply shaped by our social class,
Dru Johnson (14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (14:23)
by our gender, by right, all these things. and so this this us is
can be actually quite varied, you know, in ex felt experience, right? and I’m not even talking about, the young people these days that have never had a chance to read a book, you know, that kind of thing, right? But I’m talking about just, you know, someone like recognizing that I occupy a very particular social location with a particular experience.
that is my felt experience, but that someone living in a very different socioeconomic situation might have something just feel actually in their body something really different. And then we could talk about neurodivergence and all that, right? That’s another category.
Dru Johnson (15:15)
Right.
Felicia Song (15:16)
So all that to say it’s it’s it’s a it’s a us is deeply problematic. and it’s and I’m learning to try to figure out
how to speak with an awareness of of my limitations and and and trying to be read more widely and also think about well how how can I write in a way that that speaks into other people’s experiences, you know, other people that experience something very, very different from what I
Dru Johnson (15:50)
Mm.
Felicia Song (15:50)
live.
Dru Johnson (15:52)
Yeah, it it’s interesting you say that ’cause I feel like as a biblical studies person, I spend ninety percent of my time in a classroom trying to get students or parishioners in some cases to imagine what it would be like to n never have a concept of a government who could come in and save you if something went wrong or you know, food aid doesn’t does not exist, right? or you’re looking
Felicia Song (16:15)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (16:16)
at your crops thinking, Don’t collapse, right? ‘Cause this is it.
Felicia Song (16:19)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (16:21)
And so there is this kind of like what it what it’s like to be in philosophy terms, I think about what it’s like to be a bat. there
is a kind of like what
Felicia Song (16:27)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (16:27)
it’s like to be an agrarian subsistence farmer sewn into
Felicia Song (16:29)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (16:30)
every, you know, biblical storyline. and there’s also what I have noticed, you know, I teach a lot of freshman classes, so thirteenth grade with a lot of eighteen year olds.
So that last point then is they they not only have a hard time wanting to like get away from some of the tech in their life or reduce it or remove it. they actually can’t even imagine a world in which that could happen. Like they don’t they say, Well, yeah, you grew up without these things, that’s fine. But now we could and I’m not suggesting they again an on off, we don’t do these things.
But I think that imagination of what it would be like to not ever check your phone during the day. Like no desire, no imagination that that could be a thing. So in that kind of us that is trying to understand what it feels like, how do we, you know, when you talk about uses of text, this is kind of a generational divide. I remember a time when I’d never, you know, until 2013 when I finally got a cell phone, I never worried about having a cell phone on me. and so it’s very easy for me to recall that. How
Is that even a worthy project with people
who have like grown up
Felicia Song (17:37)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (17:37)
in the screen era?
Felicia Song (17:44)
Yes, I think it is.
if only because to not even try and to not suggest it is to concede that
their lives will actually be less because they’ve they’ve had ceaseless connectivity. and
I think this is where, you know, when we talk about trying to imagine what other people experience,
movies are a great place for that that I think still have traction. that that that invite you to enter into someone’s experience that might be very different from yours and gives you just a different POV, as the young people say, right? and so
I think a lot of when I’ve interacted with younger people, it’s trying to one get them to slow down enough to think about what are the times in their lives that have really mattered? Like really mattered and then we talk about what was what were the
context or the coordinates for that. And for most people that’s usually not with a screen, right? and so then we examine things from there, right? To be like, okay, those are your core memories or that was deeply formative for you. and if it was a positive experience, then we say, Well, how do we have more of that? without even necessarily having to open
get them to open the possibility that maybe they’re actually not as happy and satisfied with their lives as they think they are or willing to defend their habits for. what I’ve found in the last,
you know, decade or so is really a a strong shift in young people’s willingness to say, no, this actually stinks. But but to your point, a resignation
continues to exist. Like, well what else am I gonna do about this? This is the world I live in. I can’t not. And and there’s a way in which I very much I empathize with that, you know? like I I I don’t wanna make light of that feeling. and and like structural reality for most of them, right? Like this is the the
the platform they’re on is the way in which they conduct their social lives. Like like that is that is a there’s a very true reality that that is if they got off of it there would be real costs, right? And to make light of those costs is is not helpful and unfair, I think, actually. and so you know it it it
for different groups of young people, for some of them they might be motivated by knowing that the tech industry very much wants us to be resigned, that they want us to believe that there’s a technological imperative, that this is part of the the ideology, right? that continues the machine. that is the economic machine.
But at the same time I think it is
maybe gently pressing up against the the the deterministic resignation and saying, you know, that it’s true that there’s a lot of things that aren’t going going to go away anytime soon, but if we actually sorry, I this is the history in major me. I’m always like, if we look historically
Dru Johnson (22:15)
Yeah.
Felicia Song (22:17)
like
Technologies have continu have continually been objects of societal shaping. I mean it’s that’s just
a historical fact. It’s always been that. It’s always been different groups of people, different collectives who have had power or not power, that have shaped the ways that we use technology and whether that is a cultural movement or that’s a legislative act.
there have been actually changes, right? And so like I often talk about the safety belt, right? Like Ralph Nader, you know, like we all wear safety. I mean, it’s a very compressed story, but right,
Dru Johnson (22:59)
Right.
Felicia Song (23:00)
it’s just like like, you know, like people didn’t wear safety belts and now you get in the car. It’s like, look at you, young person, you just put it on, right?
Dru Johnson (23:10)
Right.
Felicia Song (23:11)
and and so it’s and it’s not even necessarily that it’s because it’s the law.
Dru Johnson (23:17)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (23:17)
you
actually put it on because you feel like this is a good idea,
Dru Johnson (23:22)
Right.
Felicia Song (23:22)
right? And so that’s just one of those very small but like quick instances of saying like cultures do change. They’ve changed in my own lifetime, right? And so to to think that we like that the the cement isn’t still wet in some ways,
Dru Johnson (23:45)
Mm.
Felicia Song (23:45)
right?
is actually misguided.
Dru Johnson (23:50)
Yeah, a safety belt. That’s a great example. I think of littering as well. you know,
Felicia Song (23:54)
Yeah, totally.
Dru Johnson (23:57)
having lived in an immigrant community for about thirteen years in Newark, New Jersey,
you forget
Felicia Song (24:01)
Hmm.
Dru Johnson (24:02)
like, littering is there was a campaign we were taught in elementary school, don’t litter, right?
Felicia Song (24:06)
Right.
Dru Johnson (24:07)
There and so we but it’s not universal, like it’s not valued everywhere. And it really
Felicia Song (24:12)
Right.
Dru Johnson (24:13)
is
It’s something about yourself and your connection to the, you know, the community, the world around you that you kind of carry with you and and the way
Felicia Song (24:20)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (24:20)
the seatbelt is it’s similarly your connection to hopefully not connection to the the cars around you or trees around you or whatever. But
Felicia Song (24:27)
Yeah, right. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (24:29)
it’s something that’s burned in. And so in in ritual, sorry to drag this into my theory, but I’m trying to think about what you’re saying through kind of ritual theorization is
Felicia Song (24:34)
No, I I wanna this is great. I love it. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (24:40)
you know, that ritualization
There’s variations on it, but a lot of it is prescribed. So like like people didn’t just start wearing the seatbelt because they saw the car crash reports. I mean, we all see highways are one of the most deadly places in the world. American highways are. it took people going out there saying, You should do this. Don’t you know, start forest fires. don’t litter, right? It’s not doesn’t make keep America beautiful. So
I guess the question is at what level do you think we need to start? Those are all national campaigns. At what
Felicia Song (25:13)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (25:13)
level do we, and I mean kind of Christians and concerned citizens, need to advocate? We’ll talk about what we should advocate for, but what what’s the level you think that is actually comprehensible for us to advocate? Because we are telling people what to do with their bodies at the end of the day, at the end of the day when we’re telling them how to use tech or how not to use tech?
Felicia Song (25:34)
Yeah. You know, I I think of it in terms of like a an all hands on deck. we’re all in different we have different spheres of influence and whether the influence is your child’s school, classroom, or it is a congregation or you’re in a position to
be involved in some kind of social movement or even some type of legislative, you know, governing space. I think this is a really interesting cultural time where people are willing to listen at least and recognize like like
the and recognize that there are discontents, right? That there are real problems in mental health, in people’s general felt sense of exhaustion in the workplace, etc. That that there’s just data and anecdotal consensus, right? That
Dru Johnson (26:54)
Yeah, but
Felicia Song (26:55)
just did not exist before. And so
I don’t have a grand plan strategy in my mind of like w how to get from point A to point B. I think it’s it is really about what we have at our disposal. and at what point we can find enough co belligerents, so to speak, who ’cause it’s just so h it’s
deeply challenging to do anything on technol regarding technology on your own, right?
Dru Johnson (27:34)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (27:34)
But to find other people to partner and collaborate and and build some kind of critical mass that one can start advocating for some kind of change. or or or you know s sometimes it’s about change in terms of setting restrictions, right?
But then I think what would be super interesting and this is where I think of the artists in our world in our world and community is is those spaces that are not they’re not saying that they are addressing the issue of technology, but they are mere merely, quote unquote, introducing something new that into the community that is analog, low tech, that has some kind of
compelling
I know, force to it. so I’m just thinking of here I live outside of Portland. there’s this thing called the listening room where people go and they listen to an entire album by a particular artist and that’s what they do for the evening. There’s no talking, there’s no it’s just you go, you listen.
And then you leave. And and there’s these wonderful testimonies of people’s experiences of that. and it’s just it’s really interesting, right? because it’s not coming out and saying like you need to turn off your phones for the night, blah blah blah. It’s to say, hey, let’s have this
Dru Johnson (29:14)
No, no,
Felicia Song (29:15)
different experience of like being together in a room, listening to Beyonce, you know, or whoever, and and like and just taking it in.
Right? And and kind of reintroducing people to experiences of their five senses, of being together, that they don’t normally have. And that that to me that’s that’s always kind of wetting the appetite and being like, I want more of that. How do I get more of that? How do I build that into my life?
Dru Johnson (29:49)
that’s great. I I’m trying to th imagine someone going back to nineteen eighty four Drew and just saying, In the future, people are gonna really value sitting you know, they’re gonna make an event out of about sitting around and just listening to the whole album, front and back. Front and back. I’d be like, you mean like what we did every Tuesday, Thursday, you know, yeah.
Felicia Song (30:04)
Yeah, right. All the time.
Dru Johnson (30:10)
And albums were created to listen to the whole thing back then as well. So
Felicia Song (30:15)
Yes,
yes.
Dru Johnson (30:17)
yeah, that’s wonderful. The positive thing that kind of I yeah, I was just thinking of places where we really don’t even notice that we don’t have our tech on us.
Felicia Song (30:27)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (30:28)
it’s difficult to find them. I mean, even I I sometimes wince when I see concerts and everybody’s just holding up their phone, you know, videoing it and I’m thinking, What what a loss. but
Felicia Song (30:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (30:40)
again, I I I kinda get it what what they what what they’ve been trained to do.
You I’m glad you brought up data because it does seem like we do now. You know, you’re a sociologist, a social scientist. So it seems like we can say a few things like, Hey, we know these are worse for humans in general. And we know these are better things. So you just gave us a better thing. What would be, you know, the top two or three things that you would just say, like here’s you know, with the seat belts thing, it’s it’s easy. You show them some videos of people getting killed in car crashes.
You show them the stats and people go, yeah, okay. but I think it’s just a much slippier slipperier devil here that we’re fighting when it comes to the bad use of technology.
Felicia Song (31:26)
Mm. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, here in the United States in certain circles, Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt has has
Dru Johnson (31:38)
Hm.
Felicia Song (31:38)
hit a lot of people’s bedside stand.
Dru Johnson (31:42)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (31:43)
and so there’s I think most of the data is coming from psychology. A lot of it is correlation,
Dru Johnson (31:53)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (31:54)
looking at the effects
of social media use on young people’s mental health outcomes. I think there is also in the loneliness epidemic literature similar types of data about digital use and feelings of loneliness and so
there’s a way in which I think we’re just on the front end of that data. Like data takes time.
Dru Johnson (32:29)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (32:31)
And to actually get to causational sorts of claims are is very, very difficult. Right. and so I think
I think most of the to me the compelling data is specifically i i it’s compelling when it’s specific about a particular platform. So like at least even saying social media instead of just all digital, right?
Dru Johnson (33:01)
Right. Right.
Felicia Song (33:03)
Right. So to say like social media is seems to be having this effect, this negative effect on psychological well being.
then we can look at social media and say, okay, we can talk about the algorithms, we could talk about, you know, that particular structural space and what it is that might be driving those kinds of outcomes, right? And do something ab arguably do something about it.
I think the other kind of zone of data that I would say the thing to keep an eye on is
the data that’s starting to come out about people’s use of AI bots for companionship. I know AI is a v a vast topic. It’s about a lot of different things. The part that I’m interested in is particularly the reliance on AI bots as a form of human substitution kind of displacement.
for whatever reason, whether you’re young or old, and the degree to which it is voluntary, as in like I’m just curious, I’m gonna go looking around, or I’m someone that is housebound and my social worker has recommended that I do this, right? Because I I don’t have an I don’t have
my my spouse has passed away, I don’t have family to come check in on me, right? And so they recommended this. So both the voluntary and the recommended I think are the effects of
that type of AI bot companionship and what what the effects are to me are are really interesting because it to keep an eye on because I think it it it gets at one of the what I have felt is one of the most compelling reasons to use digital technologies which has been that it’s better than nothing. Right? That that maybe even
it we might call it i or if some wanna argue it’s an inferior form, right, of companionship, it’s better than having nothing at all. And that’s an argument that I have both historically in myself found very compelling, but I’m also starting to read thinkers that are saying, actually, you know, that’s that’s a fallback that’s not actually helpful, because of X, Y, and Z. And so
I think like I said in the very beginning, what I’ve always mainly been interested is is in the way that technology impacts our relationships with each other and ourselves. And so it’s the it’s the way that AI is presenting these options for both relationality and also options for
perhaps navigating the difficulties we find in ourselves,
Dru Johnson (36:32)
Mm.
Felicia Song (36:32)
right? that are moving very fast. You know, the industries are really pushing it. You see it a lot in the healthcare industry too, as options for people who have very limited resources. And so yeah, that’s that’s the second one I would
Dru Johnson (36:55)
Yeah, I had I’d forgotten I’m the companionship thing I think I’m equally worried about. I’d forgotten about the therapeutic use, which is interesting because it it may be at the end of the day, you know, after all the causational study work comes in, they say, Yeah, actually, you know, for people like my mom when she was in the depths of her dementia, I could imagine a simulated Dru who could who could get on the phone with her and kind of talk her through something as having
Felicia Song (37:17)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (37:22)
some efficacy that
might be not harmful. I think where I would see the harm is is that it then strips away the actual human that might need to go and volunteer and spend time with them, right? It strips the opportunity away from the so it’s good for the in or equal for the individual but bad for the community in some way. Is that what you’re thinking? At least one yeah. Okay.
Felicia Song (37:42)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. It it it is so the question isn’t merely about that what’s happening in that human computer interface, but it is what is happening as a society when this becomes a a relied upon lever to pull in in
Dru Johnson (38:02)
Right.
Felicia Song (38:03)
particular situations rather than pursuing other paths.
Dru Johnson (38:08)
Yeah, that’s interesting. So that requires people thinking about therapeutic outputs much more holistically and epidemiologically, I guess. All right.
Felicia Song (38:15)
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (38:18)
well, that’s great. I before I let you go, I’m real you we talked about t technology companies and tech companies. I am in this weird position where I get asked to consult for Christian and specifically Bible technologies, including there’s a spate of them that are using AI now, right? And
Felicia Song (38:32)
Yeah. so interesting. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (38:36)
and so I’m I’m on my fourth
Test run with an app, a fourth app now that is using AI and and actually in a way that I find somewhat responsible and way that I have not found in some other apps. But the the fact Christians are using AI. I mean they’ve been using everything technologically ever since it’s come out. Smoke
Felicia Song (38:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (38:57)
machines, laser light shows, everything, right? gotta worship God somehow. The
Felicia Song (38:59)
Yep.
Dru Johnson (39:04)
but it seems AI has
has like stepped into this creepy zone, like this uncanny valley, right? that we’re a little worried about here. and so I wonder what you think and and my question is actually about church. It seems that the church, like so my church, all our bulletins are on a QR code. nobody brings a Bible, everybody’s got their phone. Like it seems to me that churches are complicit in this. I wonder if you think that that’s
probably fine and that’s just another it’s like Gutenberg in the books, or if there’s something else that might be concerning here.
Felicia Song (39:44)
so my my hot take is that I think churches would be better off without the technologies in their parishioners’ hands, mainly because while it might be cost effective and efficient in so many ways, I understand like all the gains that can come of it. I think for many parishioners, church might be the only time
they can put the device away.
Dru Johnson (40:15)
Mm.
Felicia Song (40:16)
And and this is kind of how, you know, I was the teacher on the campus that asked students to put away their phones and their laptops.
Dru Johnson (40:24)
Me too.
Felicia Song (40:25)
And and I I always just was very like, I’m sorry, I’m just weird, but you’re this is my home, you’re in my classroom, you know, like this how we’re just gonna run things. but I also really tried to sell it as
You know, this is the this is the one place where you don’t have to respond. And and you can please just tell your friends and your parents and whoever else wants to reach you that you could just blame me. You know, like
Dru Johnson (40:53)
Mm.
Felicia Song (40:53)
your your teacher has required this thing and now you get ninety minutes of peace. Actually. You don’t have to look. You don’t have to worry about the notification. Right? And I just want you to spend those ninety minutes feeling what that feels like.
You know, and it wasn’t necessarily a class on technology, you know, I just it’s like it didn’t matter. And so I feel the same thing about church, that church is, at least in the context of Sunday worship spaces and times, is it’s a it’s a very fertile time and precious time, that churches can gather their people and offer a rest.
in the exact same way that Buddhist temples offer rests, meditations during lunch hours, that that anyone people just walk in, whether they’re Buddhist or not, right? ‘Cause they just want it to stop. Right? And so to me it’s like, why would we give that up? like yeah, right?
Dru Johnson (41:57)
Or increase it. Yeah.
Felicia Song (41:59)
Like let’s make it a time where you could just let it stop. Just let it stop. and and just
Put your burdens down just for a moment and let’s just, you know, it it it’s okay. We can rest. and that would to me that’s a much more maybe what I wanna say is that’s a institutional structure that many churches already have, that you don’t have to do a lot to gin up, that is just it’s just there, right? Like, so why not use it?
and solve the other, you know, program problems another way.
Dru Johnson (42:42)
Hmm. It it almost sounds like you’re making the case for, and I’m on board with you if you are. because I also don’t let anything, no technology. I wrote an article that summarizes all the reasons why they should read on paper and so I just make them read that. but in church, it almost seems like you might be advocating for like Christian spiritual maturity involves the ability to s be still as well in some ways. And
I think we used to think of that in our sense our cast our cares upon the Lord and and now I’m thinking, no, it actually means just physically being still. No no vibrations
Felicia Song (43:20)
Mm. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (43:23)
in your pot. You know, feel all the phantom text and and and move on until you know until they until they fade or something like that. That that might be a a demand we place on people we’re discipling to say, like this is a Christian maturity skill you need to learn.
Felicia Song (43:38)
Hmm. Yeah. Yes, I I think I am of the mindset that the the beautiful thing about Christianity is that that through time and and across spaces there have been different traditions and practices that have been so valuable. and that when we put ourselves in a particular time and space,
particular practices might have particular resonance or or they feed our soul because in twenty twenty s as twenty twenty-six people we just ha we kind of share certain burdens, scars, deficiencies, whatever right, that are that are
Dru Johnson (44:24)
Mm-hmm.
Felicia Song (44:24)
about our time, right? And so for me I think of the contemplative tradition in their practices of stillness and silence.
as actu you know, the desert Amas and Abas, right? It’s like they actually have something that is very important now because of all the noise and all the ceaseless stimulus, right? And and so let’s learn now. So so what I so I say all that, you know, my big all this prefacing is to say, like maybe in another time there’ll be some other practice. Like
Like like we really need to get into scripture more carefully and be studying more and right. and I think study of scripture is very important, right? Obviously. Right.
Dru Johnson (45:09)
We definitely need that. Yeah.
Felicia Song (45:13)
I’m talking to someone who sees right. But I think in this time, right, saying that having more access to information actually doesn’t necessarily feed the
Dru Johnson (45:24)
Mm.
Felicia Song (45:24)
soul. Right? The the the the twenty twenty six soul is the one that needs to
discover what’s possible through stillness and silence and that will require it will feel like a demand for most of us. It will feel very difficult. It will feel uncomfortable. but getting to the other side, I think, as those who teach in the contemplative tradition often say, right, is is the fruit there is is undeniable, right?
Dru Johnson (45:59)
Mm.
Felicia Song (45:59)
It’s just something
that you can’t get to anywhere any other way.
Dru Johnson (46:07)
Well, Felicia Song, thank you so much for your wisdom and your guidance.
Felicia Song (46:12)
It’s really been a pleasure. I really enjoy this conversation.
