Dru Johnson (00:00)
What are Christian Zionisms? That’s right, there are many. They are legion. This week we’re gonna talk with The rector of Christchurch at Jaffa Gate in the old city of Jerusalem, who is going to give us his forty-six years of perspective of living in Israel, how Christian Zionism affects the Israeli-Palestinian project.
And how he sees current critiques of both Palestine and Israel, including critiques of Islam and Israel’s relationship as a state to Christianity. If you enjoy what we do here at the Center for Hebraic Thought, the Biblical Mind, we would love to hear from you. Feedback is always welcome. you can and subscribe in this YouTube channel, or if you’re listening, you can go.
subscribe to us and offer a review, hopefully five stars.
If you hear anything in our interviews that’s quotable, you should have it put on a coffee mug and you can mail it to me at Hope College, Dru Johnson at Hope College. and make sure and stuff three one hundred dollar bills inside that coffee mug to make sure that I can recognize you on this show. Otherwise, you can give at thebiblicalmind dot org slash give. Now to David Pileggi
David Pileggi (01:21)
Well, I think if we’re gonna talk about Zionism we should probably stick to certainly a a Jewish understanding and there’s no better Zionist definition than the one given by Theodore Herzl, which basically boiled down to the understanding that the Jews are a nation, they’re a distinct ethnic group, they are they are not a race, and the Jews need
a homeland. They need a a national state in order to help preserve jewish identity and also provide a place of refuge for the jewish people in a world that knows you know one generation after another generation of anti Semitism persecution and more so two things two things
Dru Johnson (02:17)
And yeah, go ahead.
the that lens itself and the and the claim came up in our discussions with Bruce Fisk and Daniel Bannoura is that not just Jewish supremacy? Is that not creating a state where Jews reign?
David Pileggi (02:38)
well there are all there are many different forms of Zionism, just as there are just many different forms of socialism, or different forms of communism, or different models of capitalism. And there are as many shades of Zionist opinion as there might be in the Republican Party or and and the Democratic Party, for example, today. lots of ideologies.
including Zionism, are more fractured than than ever before. And there is certainly a stream which is unfortunately in the ascendancy at the moment of Jews who live in Israel and maybe abroad who see themselves right over and above Arabs and they see themselves
or they see the need to suppress Arabs, suppress Arab rights, suppress Palestinians in the West Bank, and more. This is, of course, fueled by social social and cultural factors, as well as a dangerous form of of Messianism. But you know, Zionism is nationalism. it is not really possible to condemn nationalism and then turn around and
to
perhaps extol Palestinian nationalism or Islamic nationalism or Scottish nationalism or American nationalism, American exceptionalism. There has to be basically one rule, one rule for everyone. I I more than understand the need to come to Israel needs to come to terms with the Palestinian people, the occupation as it as it is
as it works, as it oppresses people now, that certainly needs to come to an end. But to say that Jewish nationalism is bad, but our nationalism is somehow good and holy and righteous, strikes me as a bit unconvincing.
Dru Johnson (04:56)
Yeah, I and so I are the are those apples to apples comparisons like is Palestinian nationalism essentially asking for the same things as, you know, American nationalism or Hindu nationalism?
David Pileggi (05:05)
Well you ha l
let let’s take it make it a little more basic. very often in is Islamic thought and practice you have a certain s sensibility, an approach, an attitude that Muslims are better than non Muslims, that Muslims have more rights than non Muslims, that
Jewish and Christian minorities living in a Islamic state are allowed to live in a protected dhimistatus, but they will be second or third class citizens. So you have inherent in a I think in a future Palestinian state, because I think most Palestinians would like to live in an Islamic Palestinian state of some kind. Certainly Hamas has the same.
same approach that Muslims deserve more rights, more pr more protection. Yes, Jews, Christians have no right to power in an in an Islamic polity. And so when people are chanting, you know, from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free, well they’re probably talking about an eventual Palestinian state. So
Yes, there’s a there is a a Jewish extremist version of this, but at the same time, there’s a there’s an Arab Islamic sentiment of this sentiment that’s quite quite similar. And so let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Dru Johnson (06:55)
Hm. So how do you you’re you live in Jerusalem, you live in the old city of Jerusalem. H how do you balance those two nationalisms? I mean, what how do you think about those two things?
David Pileggi (07:06)
well I respect nationalism. I respect the rights of, you know, the the the the Palestinians. I I I’m not trying to certainly don’t ignore what’s happening to them. I respect Jewish nationalism. I I am also you might say I I respect
Messianism of one kind or another, whether it’s found or eschatology was found amongst Jews or or Christians, or sorry, but ju Jews or Muslims. Yet at the same time, while I respect all these things, I suspect them as well. And my approach, our approach here at Christchurch is
try try to live out the gospel in which we value you know you know every individual made in the image of God. and at the same time, w we our ministry among Jewish people, our neighbors here are all Palestinians, largely Palestinian Christians, that surround the church. But if you go a few hundred yards from here, then of course they’re
they will be the Muslims. So we have a you know an interesting, really a very, very interesting challenge. And if we respect all people, I also understand that we owe the Jewish people love and what it means to to love the Jewish people it it may mean to be honest at
At us at certain points, where we see the policy of the state of Israel, especially in the days in which we live, to be extremely worrisome. And at the same time, we also understand that the well-being of Israel and the well-being of the church depended upon you might say a mutuality, a interdependence. and so therefore, even if
even though we might be a ministry amongst the the Jewish people, you know, can’t just simply say, okay, well, we’re just well we we just want to be for for Israel and and and we’ll if Israel has enemies, they’ll be our enemies. That’s certainly not that’s certainly not our approach. So our focus is on the kingdom of heaven and we believe that the kingdom of heaven
the that the Holy Spirit, which is at work in the the Jesus movement, has the power to bring reconciliation, has the power to bring forgiveness, restoration. And we perhaps not always successfully, we try to model that here at Christchurch by having a diverse community. you might call us mutts, but we have Jewish believers working with us
Arab Christians, folks from the outside, sometimes there are there are Muslims working here as well and more or less we’re all committed to the same vision of being united while maintaining a certain a certain diversity. and so this is a vision
and a model not just for a small corner of the old city, but maybe for the entire city itself, maybe for the entire country, maybe for areas where or any place in the world where you have you know ethnic strife, right? Blacks against whites, Puerto Ricans against Cubans, Catholics against Protestants, right? So
Dru Johnson (11:30)
Mm.
David Pileggi (11:30)
That’s
our approach. Our approach is the is very simply that within all our power we need to model what it means to be for Israel and love the Jewish people and be also for the Palestinian people as well. That’s not mutually exclusive, but it’s sometimes sometimes, especially in periods of tension, it’s difficult.
Dru Johnson (11:56)
Hm. You you’ve been there forty years or more, is that right?
David Pileggi (12:01)
You’re
minim you’re minimizing my suffering. I’ve been I’ve been here forty six years.
Dru Johnson (12:08)
Forty six years. Okay. So much of my life you have been living in Israel.
David Pileggi (12:13)
That’s exactly right.
Dru Johnson (12:15)
I I wonder on the issue of Christians, like the state of Israel and its relationship to Christians in general across this the the state
David Pileggi (12:22)
Well, pretty.
Dru Johnson (12:23)
of Israel, what what would be your your I hear lots of conflicting reports. you know, h high persecution, some people say no, it’s it’s fine or it’s the same it’s always been or whatever. What’s your perception over the decades of of
the relationship between Christianity and the state of Israel.
David Pileggi (12:39)
my goodness. my perception is basically that the state of Israel doesn’t really consider the Christian world to be important. it isn’t always a matter of of of persecution or somehow trying to oppress us or harass us. in many
in many ways. I think being a Christian here is quite liberating and there is a fair amount of religious freedom, especially if you compare it to, you know, other countries in our neighborhood. at the same time, the State of Israel doesn’t again, Christianity is something to to be feared. and it’s the attitude might be
we’ve had bad experience with Christians. Let’s not get too close, let’s not get too involved. And by the way, this sometimes is a s there’s similar attitude towards the Arab population of Israel, not necessarily speaking speaking of the West Bank. there’s attitude well, we’re so busy with Jewish affairs and we’re so busy with security and other issues.
the Christian community is quite tiny. therefore, you know, why do we want to spend invest a lot of time in you know relationships with all these small tiny Christian tiny Christian communities. there i there are problems in Jerusalem, especially where there is a growing extremism. And here people, by the way, make make quite a big mistake.
Because the extremism doesn’t so much come from nationalist circles, but it very often comes from ultra orthodox circles. And the ultra
Dru Johnson (14:41)
Mm. Yeah.
David Pileggi (14:42)
orthodox are not, you know, Israeli nationalists. you know, they’re not the ones who are you know, th thinking all day and all night, you know, how to annex the the the West Bank. And we it’s been suggested and and I I agree with the
the
the basic premise that the reason that we have a rise in harassment, we’re not persecuted, I or jailed or but the reason we have a rise in harassment, which includes spitting, vandalism and more, is because there are Jewish groups who start are starting to feel threatened that
worldwide you might say that walls between Jews and Christians are starting to come down. There’s
Dru Johnson (15:41)
Hmm.
David Pileggi (15:42)
more tolerance in some circles, there’s more mutual understanding. for example, there’s some great work being done at the University of the Negev or at
Dru Johnson (15:54)
Hm.
David Pileggi (15:54)
the Hebrew university, right, where you have professors, students, right, who are are working to
better understand Christianity, to educate a whole new generation of of students, right? so that they may not be ignorant. You have historical institutions here like Yad bin Svi. so th th these institutions are oftentimes doing great work. again the state itself you know
tends to to to kind of ig ig somewhat ignore us. and this lowering of the walls, right? S all of a sudden Jews and Christians can see, well, maybe the differences aren’t quite as big as we once thought they were, this creates a lot of anxiety, right? This creates a lot of nervousness. And all of a sudden, right,
or some groups at least, Jewish identity, which has somehow been protected by these high walls. and every one of these walls speak loudly to say, being what it means to be Jewish, it you’re not a Christian. Yes? Right?
Dru Johnson (17:19)
Right.
David Pileggi (17:20)
So th these walls are come t are come tumbling down, or at least they’re they’re they’re falling down gradually.
and there are people who want to rebuild these walls. And I would
Dru Johnson (17:32)
Hm.
David Pileggi (17:34)
it seems to me that the same is also true in many different parts of the Christian world where there is, you might say, an issue of identity, right? why did we why did we build a why did we reject, for example,
Jewish customs, Jewish calendar, so on and so forth, as early Christians, because it was confusing, was it not? Yeah, right. Jews and Christians
Dru Johnson (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
David Pileggi (18:09)
in the ancient world, they were kind of confused. Who who is who? Yeah. Are you a Jew? Are you a Christian? There was obviously a lot of mixing, debating, talking, Christians visiting synagogues, Jews listening to, yeah.
Christian scholars, Christian preachers in places like Caesarea or Mesopotamia. And well, what does each community do? Each community wants to make sure that that our identity is clear. Let’s build some walls. Let’s build a box. I’ll stay in my box, the Christian box, you stay in your box, the Jewish box. Of course, because of the because of the overlap.
And the similarities and the sharing of one sharing of one Bible, we don’t do the same with the Buddhist. And
Dru Johnson (19:03)
Hm.
David Pileggi (19:04)
neither do Jews do the same with Hindus, right? I mean it’s kind of clear we’re not Buddhist. It’s very clear,
Dru Johnson (19:10)
Right.
David Pileggi (19:11)
you know, to be Jewish means you’re not a Hindu, more or less, unless you’re from California, I suppose. So so this is a threat to people.
Th this is a threat. And it comes at the at the time when especially in the ultra Orthodox world, the and the Orthodox world, they feel that they’re rising, you know, to they’re in the ascendancy, let’s say. Israel’s becoming more orthodox, there are more orthodox children being born.
secularism here is in retreat,
Dru Johnson (19:57)
Hmm.
David Pileggi (19:58)
you know, on on many fronts. and you know, for for the Orthodox and the Nationalist Orthodox as well, the smell of victory is in the air. And so people feel like here’s a time here is our opportunity to fix what’s you know what’s what’s going wrong.
Dru Johnson (20:21)
Yeah, that’s fascinating. I hadn’t thought about the separation of that. And we even saw some of this when I was hanging out with you last time in Jerusalem, we saw some of this ultra orthodox activity on the Temple Mount that I couldn’t have even imagined happening you know, ten years ago.
David Pileggi (20:37)
Now now we have to be a bit careful because some
Dru Johnson (20:40)
Okay.
David Pileggi (20:41)
of some of right the tendency in our media is to think anyone who has a black hat and a black coat and
Dru Johnson (20:47)
Right, right, right.
David Pileggi (20:48)
they must be an extremist. That
Dru Johnson (20:50)
Right. No.
David Pileggi (20:51)
basically the ultra orthodox, right, the Haridim, whether they’re Hasidic or non Hasidic, they don’t believe that one should go up under the Temple Mount at all. Right. But there is a
you might say a Jewish there’s an Orthodox Jewish nationalism or a religious Zionism that believes that one should go up on the Temp on the Temple Mount and should walk around the edge in order not to desecrate the Holy of Holies. And this movement, sadly, is being encouraged by ministers in the present Israeli government.
And they’re playing with fire and I’m not sure they they really know know what they’re they’re doing ’cause this could cause likely will cause a backlash and a an explosion in the Muslim population here and maybe even even abroad. So but whether you’re ultra orthodox and you’re not nationalist or you’re you’re orthodox and you are nationalist,
There is the feeling that you might say for both communities things are going things are going our way. Israel’s becoming more Sabbath observant, again, as I said,
Dru Johnson (22:15)
Mm-hmm.
David Pileggi (22:16)
secular. they these religious groups have a lot of political power which they’ve been able to use to reshape significantly be it begin reshaping Israeli society.
Which by the way, and here’s a interesting irony in all this. many critics of Israel and Zionism used to always say, Well, surely this can’t can’t have anything to do with God, because you know, Israel is secular and many Jews well, many Jews at one time, the pe probably about twenty percent, were atheist and didn’t believe in God. So how can God be involved in this project? Now that people are becoming religious,
the irony is, well, of course, they’re extremist or you know, th this surely can’t be God. Look at the way that look at the way that they’re behaving. So you know, there there you have it.
Dru Johnson (23:21)
I think a lot of people will be surprised at what you said about the Israelis the government’s kind of stance towards Christianity, which is basically it it’s you know, it’s not a pressing factor in the in any kind of administration’s it’s not on their desk right now how they should
David Pileggi (23:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (23:39)
relate to the Christians. Because I think for most Americans and probably Europeans, their perception is that you know.
The Israelis want Christians in at every moment because they’re the that they’re the heroes that are gonna bring all the money and the favor and, the anti Semitism. I be I’m sure I’m caricaturing to a great extent here, but I would have thought that relationship would have been fostered and fanned into flame rather than neutral or poo pooed.
David Pileggi (24:07)
Okay, so the you might say that there are bureaucrats, government officials who basically would love for Christians to come for a two week visit, maybe support the local chapter of Israel’s equivalent to the Red Cross. but it you know, a relationship especially between the state and here I’m not talking about
universities or maybe Jewish s Israeli civil society. this this can this can make again folks nervous. and therefore the best is these Christians love us. Okay. but you know what? Let’s not get too close because there’s a a Jewish anxiety that sort of kicks in.
And it starts to say, maybe they want something from us, maybe they have mixed motives. We need to scrutinize these groups like we, you know, read a page of the Talmud.
Dru Johnson (25:20)
Hm.
David Pileggi (25:21)
And this sort of Israeli anxiety, you might say, or Jewish anxiety, and again, it’s doesn’t tend to be everywhere, but it often tends to find itself in certain
places of power or influence, for example, in the Jewish religious establishment here. This is sort of Israel shooting itself in the foot because it could have better relations with the Christian world, not just the evangelical world, if it actually took a little time to engage with local Christian communities, find out.
what needs we might have, how we could perhaps work together, cooperate together, actually have I’m a I’m a a little bit skeptical of dialogue because I think we’ve kind of reached the pretty close to reaching the end of dialogue. But in
Dru Johnson (26:26)
Hmm.
David Pileggi (26:27)
the in the words of the world’s greatest rock and roll bands who drew, you know, let’s see action, how can Jews and Christians
in Israel and abroad, you know, how can we you know work to bring you might say to to bring g honor to God’s name, right? Keep
Dru Johnson (26:52)
Mm.
David Pileggi (26:52)
Shashem, instead of bringing a desecration to God’s name. And so I know that in the past we’ve been able to w work with
Israeli NGOs who are bringing lighting to you know to African villages without electric power or to help Israeli NGOs in their
work in earthquake zones and things. Right. So th these are the kind of things that I think hold out hold out some some promise. So yes, on one hand, you know, send us your support. on the other hand, we’re not quite sure what to do with you and what you want. I would say
Dru Johnson (27:43)
Hm.
David Pileggi (27:44)
that there are that that is a very prevalent kind of attitude. I would say that there are some in the government, such as the Prime Minister
who’s probably more enthusiastic than than than most most others.
Dru Johnson (28:02)
so when we talk about Christian Zion when you when you hear the term Christian Zionism, I wonder like what is the icon that flashes in your head? Like what does that mean to you or is it just a big amorphous blur?
David Pileggi (28:16)
It
it means nothing to me. I mean it’s it’s thrown around by the critics especially Palestinian critics, you know, they they no everything is the fault of of Christian Zionists, you know, the world is messed up thanks to Christian Zionism. The Palestinian people don’t have their rights and their state thanks to Christian Zionism.
and more. So Christian Zionism is responsible for for just about everything, for every evil and for for every wrong. and Palestinians have been a bit and maybe understandable, but they have been sometimes find it difficult to be critical of their to engage in self criticism or to believe that
they might have actually might have agency and maybe have had some some agency all along. And I should point out, Dru that amongst Christian Zionists, right, the you know, the the default is, well everything’s the fault of Islam. Everything’s the fault of Islamic ideology.
Dru Johnson (29:27)
Hm.
David Pileggi (29:28)
Everything it’s gotta be the Muslims, right? and we’ve gotta watch out for the Muslims. You know, they’re taking over the West. Israel’s fighting against the Muslims and
if they’re th
Dru Johnson (29:39)
Mm.
David Pileggi (29:41)
the enemy of my enemy is my friend. so whether you’re you’re s oftentimes advocating for Palestinian rights or you’re advocating for the security of Israel, it can become very s very, very one dimensional and simplistic. But Christian Zionism is a just it’s an incredibly big term and and no one no one’s quite sure what
they mean by it. Very often they want to say, okay, if you’re a dispensationalist, you know, this is this is not the right way to interpret the Bible and it has lots of theological problems, right, connected to it and and more. But what if you’re not a dispensationalist? What if you’re from the old postmillennial the school of postmillennialism, right? and which you don’t
You’re not waiting for the Antichrist and the rapture and y and the what else goes along with that? The the right? The Battle of Armageddon.
Dru Johnson (30:45)
I was gonna say the the T L the yeah, yeah, the
the icon for dispensationalism has for good or for ill become the left behind book series, right? The the the raptures, the Armageddon, the Megiddo yeah, exactly.
David Pileggi (30:58)
Right. Right.
Exactly. So you know, and it was for hundreds of years you had Christians who loved and prayed for the Jewish people and even longed for their restoration to, you know, the the land of Israel, and they weren’t dispensationalist, right? They were influenced, at least in the English speaking world, largely by the Puritans, right? They have Puritan eschatology.
Right, influenced this l love of Hebrew studies, love of l love of the holy land, you might say, and an expectation that the Jews would return to the to the land of Israel and that they would probably become gentlemen Christian farmers, and then you know, the Lord would
the Lord would come back in all of this. And in my church, the Anglican church, while we had many, many arguments to to pick with the the Puritans, interestingly enough, Puritan eschatology seeped into mainstream mainstream Anglicanism for for quite some time and that eschatology basically
Or that their exegesis, which was influenced by a generation of of continental Bible scholars after Luther and Calvin, that exegesis basically produced again a maybe a certain romanticism about the Jews, maybe a certain ignorance, but also an expect an understanding that when the Bible talks about Israel, it’s not using the term allegoric in an allegorical.
manner,
Dru Johnson (32:54)
Hm.
David Pileggi (32:54)
right? That literally Israel is Israel, right? And that that the church is an Israel. And this revolution, you might say, or understanding in Bible reading, believe it or not, even was absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church. so don’t ever let it be said that they’re they’re not influenced by Protestants. Okay. So
Dru Johnson (33:19)
Mm.
David Pileggi (33:21)
so what is a is a Christian Zionist, someone who
someone who just cares about the Jewish people, who hopes that they do well, who prays for them that, you know, they may not be, you know, destroyed on October the eighth, but who isn’t expecting, you know, a rapture or who is not expecting you know, the battle of Arm Armageddon to begin any minute. who what about somebody who just thinks, gosh Israel is
Chinese state, it traditionally up until you know has reflected you know Western values, it’s it’s you know, it’s a democracy, it’s democracy is in danger, I would say at the moment. you know, yet we I need to support that. Maybe someone who has you know feels the weight of the Holocaust.
especially as as it came anti-semitism was delivered generation after generation, you know, through Christian teaching, preaching, etc., etc. So so what are we talking about? There’s no definition. And again, if the Jews are not allowed to have a state or they shouldn’t have a state, then maybe you know we should talk about dismantling France.
And then, you know, the United States or maybe will dismantle some other states, right? Because this ha there has to be something of a level playing field. and when states act badly, yes, well, you can tell me what what state, you know, what country, right, hasn’t acted badly, what country hasn’t committed war crimes, what country hasn’t committed oppression, maybe
Denmark or Iceland have had that luxury, and more. So I I find this condemnation of Christian Zionism to be c really kind of problematic. So folks who want to criticize it need to be very, very specific. Okay.
Dru Johnson (35:44)
let let me throw some scenarios past you, or maybe a few.
David Pileggi (35:49)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (35:51)
Would I be a Christian Zionist if I, and let me give you a few views that I I might hold simultaneously, love the Jewish people.
David Pileggi (36:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (36:02)
I’m not really sure whether the Jews going back to Israel was God or if that was just kind of a sociological, you know, historical event. I’m unclear on that one.
David Pileggi (36:12)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (36:14)
I believe it’s that the Jewish people have a right.
to a state that they have to run that state in a fair way towards everybody who lives in
David Pileggi (36:21)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (36:22)
it, and I also think that the state of Israel is, you know, horrifically wrong about what they’ve done in Gaza and how they’ve treated the West Bank. Can I is am I still a Christian Zionist if I believe all those things?
David Pileggi (36:36)
I I sa i if you look, you could be just a Zionist, w but if you come at this with from maybe a Christian point of view, not even for example, falling back on prophecy. Maybe you want to fall back on Romans eleven, which says, you know, God loves the Jewish people. and if God loves the Jewish people because of the sake of the patriarchs, well I think we as the church should love them as well.
we owe them a great debt. salvation is of the Jews. We have a continu we have a a a continual continuing destiny with the Jewish people as we see in in the New Testament. and if and if that I I mean I I would suppose informs your political con conviction even if you believe that there is nothing divine about the state of Israel.
Then yeah, you could probably be a Christian Zionist. And by the way, if there’s as Professor David Flusser pointed out once, the the paradigm isn’t always one of prophecy, or at least prophecy is understood by many dispensationalists. The paradigm of the State of Israel or the return of the Jewish people might be this cycle that runs through biblical history.
Of exile somehow may maybe it’s punishment return. Exile return, exile return. so one could see theological significance in that way. Or one could simply say, Okay, after the Holocaust Jews were desperate and they formed themselves again, they formed themselves into a state. Is that so evil?
I don’t know for a hundred and fifty years, no, two hundred years or more, right? We as Gentiles, right, have been espousing and practicing, you know, nationalism, right, of one form or another. And then turn around and say to the Jews, Well, well, you’re not allowed to do this, because we’ve made a lot of mistakes and we we see what we’ve done wrong. again, is
is very problematic. So you could still be a Christian Zionist and and in this. Or you could just be a f someone who’s who has a a love for Jewish people or or Jewish learning, you Christian who thinks that the Jewish people still have something to teach us. That’s kind of a th one theme we pick up when we’re in Poland, that having survived
And the diaspora with a with their identity and tact, well them there might be some useful lessons for for us, and all of this as Christians.
Dru Johnson (39:39)
Okay, I’ve th this now feels like we’re playing you might be a redneck if, but if am I still a Christian Zionist if if by Christian convictions I believe there should be, you know, a a a democratic republic of some sort, a liberal democracy, something like what Israel has today, which I agree seems to be slipping a little bit. and I also want to see some kind of reconciliation with
Palestinians as a Palestinian state or some kind of combination where Palestinians have more say in the governance of the area? at what point does does this but say these are all Christian convictions that drive me? I’m unsure about whether this is divine action or not. It could be, maybe not. Only time will tell. we don’t have a prophet to tell us today that this was divine action. Like, you know, it’s the it’s the
David Pileggi (40:31)
Right.
Dru Johnson (40:31)
benefit of the biblical times we have authenticated prophets to tell us. at what point does it like
crossover into non non Zionism, I guess, if you hear my get my drift.
David Pileggi (40:43)
n non-Zionism would just say Jews don’t have a right to a state. look, we’re not talking
Dru Johnson (40:48)
Okay.
David Pileggi (40:48)
about what size the state should be, right? we’re not also defining there’s a there was an ambiguity in eighteen ninety seven when Herzl wrote his famous book, Der Judenstadt. Yes, in German as p and in English, what is he talking about? A state that has a Jewish
face with Jewish values and and a Jewish character? Or is he simply talking about a collection of Jews living
Dru Johnson (41:18)
Mm-hmm.
David Pileggi (41:18)
in, you know, one particular you know, one particular country? So all of this is ambiguous. I don’t I think there most of the world’s Jewish community and quite a few of of of those who live here in Israel do
want some kind of accommodation with the with the Palestinians. I have to put a caveat on that because after October the seventh, there was a significant hardening in amongst the Israeli public towards towards Palestinians. so but still I I think most of the world understands that this is necessary. I think it’s very difficult for outsiders, right?
people from who are sitting in Los Angeles, California, perhaps to pontificate to people here. Right? you know, there needs to be a Palestinian state, there needs to be this, there needs to be that. No, the two sides need to negotiate and they need to come to to some kind of s you know, some kind of conclusion. And unfortunately, there are many on both sides who believe that they don’t need to compromise or they don’t need to negotiate.
Because on the Israeli side they say we have the bulldozers and we’re just going to chew up more of the West Bank and build more settlements and we’ll just create a fiat accompli. And there’s o there’s those on the Palestinian side, well, if we just keep going in this direction, Israel will be a pr international pariah and we’ll get what we want, you know, without having to to make painful compromises.
Dru Johnson (43:07)
Mm.
David Pileggi (43:08)
So, this is where things are this is where
Dru Johnson (43:12)
Mm.
David Pileggi (43:13)
things stand at the moment. And it’s unfortunate. But I have this radical peace plan, Dru and it’s very, very radical.
Dru Johnson (43:23)
right. Let’s hear it.
David Pileggi (43:25)
Yeah, let’s hear it. yeah, it’s really simple, right? In good faith, both sides should talk to each other. And maybe they’ll come up with a federated state. Maybe they’ll come up with a
Bi- national state. Maybe they will decide on having a Palestinian state that is not doesn’t have all the powers, or all the rights of a state such as having an army. I don’t know. But trust between the two sides is extremely, extremely low. And unfortunately, at least what I hear in Israel, very few people talk about peace.
which is hard politically, emotionally after October the seventh October seventh. but it’s not impossible for a healing and some kind of reproachment to to begin that would lead to a better relationsh and b maybe even to something a bit more hopefully a bit more permanent.
Dru Johnson (44:34)
Hm. I wonder
How it feels, d you as someone who’s lived there 46 years, going back to your pontificating comment, when you hear people talk rather uninformedly, I mean I mean,
David Pileggi (44:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (44:56)
I’ve you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in Israel and the West Bank for for an average American, and I s still feel like I know next to nothing about what’s going on. And so I I I
will r rarely ever say anything that I think is prescriptive. But I find that people over over here don’t mind at all sh not only sharing their opinions, but stating them as almost as if they’re moral objectives. and what what
David Pileggi (45:21)
huh. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (45:22)
do you do with that? Because it’s it’s constant and you’re facing it. i i I’ll give you one example. When I lived in the UK, I did not fully understand or appreciate the government there. After living there for a while, I kind of got the f gist of what was going on
But I really had nothing to say about British politics after a few years of living there. But
David Pileggi (45:42)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (45:43)
I found that British people, maybe it’s because I was in a university town as a lot of educated people, they had no problem talking about, you know, what Obama should do, what, you know. And
David Pileggi (45:52)
Right. Right.
Dru Johnson (45:53)
and it dawned on me very quickly the more they talked, I’m like, you don’t you don’t even understand how the the US government works. You don’t understand how what the culture is, right? So I I felt a little bit of that frustration constantly when I lived in the UK. Every once in a while you ran into somebody who really did know what they were talking about.
But often
David Pileggi (46:08)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (46:09)
they didn’t. And and they w their mistakes were not overt, obvious mistakes. They were little cultural things that they just didn’t understand that w happened on the ground. So how do you deal with that?
David Pileggi (46:18)
Right. Right.
well, yeah, there are a lot of people talk, again I hear it from both sides, people are very supportive of Israel, people who are supportive of the Palestinians, v again and and they might be somewhat educated, but b there’s a lot of nuance, right? That’s
that’s missing and it seems that over the years, right, the nuanced or or or the gray or what is complicated and what might be challenging becomes disappears, right? Is or is in the process of disappearing. so it it worries me. And by the way, it’s it’s perhaps a a national phenomena in the United States or even a worldwide phenomena where people don’t have any more
They don’t have any patience, right, for something that’s complicated, right? One, you write, mono monolithic view. You know, Zionism
Dru Johnson (47:23)
Right.
David Pileggi (47:24)
is all right, we gotta push the Arabs off the land. Right? Nope, from the river to the sea, Israel, you know, has to disappear, right? This is this is the this is the solution. So it drives me crazy.
It drives me crazy in religious
Dru Johnson (47:40)
I can imagine.
David Pileggi (47:41)
life or Christian life, it drives church life, it drives me crazy culturally, it drives me crazy when I hear it politically. And I fear for my grandchildren, right? I mean, what kind of world are we gonna live in, right? If if everyone is so desperate, so simplistic, right, that that you know, that they’re gonna opt for some kind of easy solution, which will always end up right.
being a cure worse than the disease. So it’s not just the Arab-Israel conflict, although maybe it’s highlighted, the people’s ignorance is highlighted here,
Dru Johnson (48:20)
Hm.
David Pileggi (48:21)
highlighted when it comes to this conflict and this reality. I’ll just mention something that someone once pointed out to me. people who
maybe a pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian, th this is same this is the same issue on both sides of the coin. Right. You ask someone, someone will tell you I’m pro-Palestinian, and you’ll say, Great. And you can ask, Do you know any Arabic? No. well tell me what you know about Palestinian culture or singing or singers or you know no, they don’t really know. Do the difference between like you know the
Palestinians who lived on in the coastal areas of Israel before 48 and those who lived in the mountains. No. Do you what do you think about Palestinians who live in Lebanon and refugee camps and they’re not allowed to work and they don’t take citizenship? So basically, you’re talking to someone who’s just anti-Israel. You’re not talking to
Dru Johnson (49:32)
Right.
David Pileggi (49:32)
someone with kind of a love.
And a real identif a serious identification with the Palestinian people. And if there are people like this, I think it’s great. I I’m I tell people all the time, I don’t care if you’re pro-Palestinian or pro Israeli, although I think you can be both, but just be honest, right? Just be honest about you know the the the nation, the group you’re adopting. Here I’m talking about outsiders.
And don’t use Israel slash Palestine as a moral health resort. Right? You’re
Dru Johnson (50:07)
Hm.
David Pileggi (50:07)
gonna do something for Palestine tomorrow, you’re gonna go and you know, march on the federal courthouse and, you know, chant some slogans. Or you’re gonna do come to Israel and, you know, well w help farmers. and then in both cases you can go home and feel good about yourself. Right?
Dru Johnson (50:27)
Yeah.
David Pileggi (50:27)
That term moral health resort, you know, was was used by
the American Jewish author sa Saul Saul Bellows. Saul so th this is basically how I feel feel that a lot of armchair warriors, a few people get involved now and again, and there’s a great a great deal of of dishonesty, right, in involved in all this. so it’s not
not s not something that you know, we can we need to probably to pursue, although I can tell you some some amazingly you write, you know, funny stories, right, that would shock either, you know, the the super pro Israel crowd or would sh maybe shock the those who are strongly in favor of the right of Palestinians, right, where the where you have
Jews and Arabs sometimes cooperating together in very, very ironic ways. So I you know, I think the the t t issue of Christian Zionism just to say is that it does it it does have its problems, right, when it comes to to ethics, it morality, biblical morality. Maybe it doesn’t always want to
look at Israel’s f faults and the things that it is doing wrong. And of course there’s the whole issue of the it’s apoc of the apocalyptic understanding, it’s apocalyptic theology, which also has, you know, a number of there’s a number of dangers there. But look on the other hand it should be it should be commended.
for opposing anti-Semitism. now it may be that s some folks who are Christian Zionists are anti-Semites, it’s true. but they they’ve been quite outspoken. replacing, I mean, rejecting replacement theology has been something
Dru Johnson (52:51)
Mm.
David Pileggi (52:51)
they’ve done something they’ve done done well. And it’s been a forum, a format.
so to speak, where some you know, Jews and Christians could do something more than have another yet another dialogue about the Trinity, right? Where there could
Dru Johnson (53:08)
Hm.
David Pileggi (53:10)
be, you know, some some kind of working together which again I think would be very very which I think it’d be very helpful. So what is a Christian Zionist and what do they do and what do they believe
I think they’re sometimes they’re oftentimes falsely characterized or they’re you might say criticized in a in a way that could be ignorant. And I always tell my Palestinian friends who complain about the Christian Zionists, why don’t you have a dialogue with them? Why don’t you talk to them and see if you can agree on a few things, right? Why don’t you st why don’t you
Why don’t you find out that they have horns and a tail? You might be
Dru Johnson (53:59)
Mm.
David Pileggi (53:59)
surprised they might not. And I say the same for sometimes for for Christian Zionists and those who are telling me that Islam is, you know, is responsible for every problem in the world. And and I I do believe that extremist Islamic ideology is certainly challenging and very dangerous for us. I’m not dismissing all that.
But at the same time, why don’t you get to know some Muslims and again talk to them,
right?
Dru Johnson (54:32)
Mm.
David Pileggi (54:32)
And see, you know, instead of treating them as an it, instead of right, Muslims, instead of treating Christian Zionism, Christian Zionists as an it, maybe you can discover that they might be a Tao. So you know, this this that’s very that’s very Buber, and so too is
Dru Johnson (54:49)
Nice Buber reference there. The Buber reference. Yeah.
David Pileggi (54:53)
the rejection of
of of the apoc the apocalyptic, right? You know, waiting for the apocalyptic to come to, you know, create a rupture in history, and to change things, because Buber’s point was that this this destroys the notion of human responsibility, right? And so yeah that’s
That’s the viewpoint from here the the this corner of Jerusalem on the eve of Rosh Hashanah.
Dru Johnson (55:33)
yeah, that’s right. Chag Rosh Hashanah. the before we go, I wonder if you could give us I don’t know what when people ask, ’cause I’m sure you do they do for you, w what are some good sources if I just wanna get into the complexity a little bit more? what are the you know, what news sources, what books could we read to help us just get our head around it, maybe maybe to help us understand to know what we don’t know.
David Pileggi (56:03)
they help to know what we don’t know. look I think that the I think the place to start, especially in
ma with bigger context in all of this. I think that first and foremost that people should be well grounded biblically and that we should be smart enough to s to s stop reading our text or preaching in such a way that is promoting anti Semitism or promoting an promotes an ignorant knowledge of Judaism.
I think this would be extremely helpful and this is where I would hope every certainly every Christian would begin. So starting, you know, with the Bible and coming to a deeper appreciation of the Bible, especially the Hebrew Bible, and of course the New Testament, which is oftentimes a commentary, right, on on those Hebrew Hebrew scriptures.
Think the next thing is that people just whenever they’re gonna talk about this, it’s so easy to to or to pontificate or to say things, is just to be very careful of either demonizing Palestinians as terrorists, or demonizing Jews and falling into, you know, traditional kind of anti Semitic tropes, right? Of of one kind or another, and to know
to know very if you’re gonna walk through this minefield to to be very careful to know how to criticize Israel in a way that holds Israel to the same maybe to the same standards as the United States or Bulgaria or Bolivia. so this is not this is not always this is not always very easy.
And finally, instead of maybe instead of reading books about, you know, the conflict itself, someone once said all history is biography, right? So people can read about the experiences of of fine experiences of Palestinians, fine experiences of Israelis, maybe they want to
Dru Johnson (58:34)
Hm.
David Pileggi (58:34)
read about Arab Christians or Jewish believers, messianic Jews here
in Israel. I think all of these have valuable can can be valuable. keeping in mind that the Christian minority, the Arab Christian minority and the very small messianic Jewish Christian community are both very similar in that they want to prove to prove to their
they they they prove to j non believing Jews and and Muslims, you know, that hey, we we may be a minority, but we’re loyal, you know, we’re
Dru Johnson (59:24)
Hmm.
David Pileggi (59:24)
we’re on your team, we’re we’re on your side. You know, this is sort of the irony about those who in the in the Christian world in the Messianic Jewish world who sometimes, you know, are s are speaking for their
you know for a wider community is that they they’re very similar and they have very similar similar aims, right? They’re both marginal
Dru Johnson (59:49)
Hmm.
David Pileggi (59:49)
communities and they both want to try to come into the mainstream and one of the ways in which you know that that happens is is to you know to just to make sure we pledge allegiance and you know swear loyalty to the to a bigger cause. Now now about some of that cynically
Only maybe the bigger cause that they are supporting, you know, is is is a valid you know, is a valid cause. But I’m just saying this is what tends this is what tends to happen.
Dru Johnson (1:00:27)
Hm.
David Pileggi (1:00:28)
so again, I would suggest that people really would be grounded in the scripture, that there’d be a love for the scripture, in which case we would
Could consult Jewish commentators or to to to learn more, to make sure we’re not engaging in anti Semitism or demonizing. And if people can read can read biographies of stories of folks and maybe you can come to an understanding of how there’s a great deal of trauma and suffering on both sides and
There is a yeah, there’s a real need for peace. Finally, people who are Christians especially, if they if they feel called to this, they they should ask for divine guidance. Like, what should I
Dru Johnson (1:01:22)
Mm-hmm.
David Pileggi (1:01:22)
do? Or what can I do that won’t make things worse? Because
Dru Johnson (1:01:26)
Hm.
David Pileggi (1:01:26)
I do think informed outsiders, right? Not those foolishly rushing in, but informed outsiders do have a positive role.
Dru Johnson (1:01:38)
Hm.
David Pileggi (1:01:39)
But
their role isn’t to make things worse. Right? It’s not to come out here and, you know, tell Palestinians, you know what those Israelis are doing to you. Do you realize, you know, this and that? Or and I’ve seen it so often on the other side as well. Y so called Christian supporters of Israel telling, You gotta watch out for this, you gotta watch out for that, your enemies, you know, they’re they’re going to do do such and such to you. so, but
We could look outsiders can help in the process of reconciliation. But but many outsiders, especially of in in recent years, come here and they’re saying, Peace, love, you know, reconciliation. but Israel, let me beat you up first. Let me let me pulverize you a little bit to show you how wrong you are, and then let’s continue to talk about peace, you know. Maybe in fact maybe you’ll listen to me. so
That kind of approach you know doesn’t doesn’t seem to doesn’t seem to work. So
Dru Johnson (1:02:47)
Well, David Pelegi, as always, pleasure hanging out with you virtually for a little while and picking your brain on these things and your experience.
David Pileggi (1:02:55)
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Dru Johnson (1:02:57)
and if anybody is on a trip to Jerusalem and they walk through Jaffa Gate, they’ll see your church over right to the right, across the street from the Tower of David.
David Pileggi (1:03:09)
That’s right. Next to the post office and before the police station, all are welcome.
Dru Johnson (1:03:13)
Yep, you can stop in,
have good coffee from their coffee shop and hang around.
David Pileggi (1:03:18)
Yeah, please please come and visit us and please if you wanna know more about the Jewish Jesus, we we do tours around Israel with that focus. And if you wanna know more about Jewish history, well come to come with us to Poland next year, okay? Which you need to come, Dru now that you’re getting now that you’re getting a windfall
Dru Johnson (1:03:36)
I know. I need to I need to carve out the time.
David Pileggi (1:03:38)
from that from the from those publishers, you know.
Dru Johnson (1:03:42)
Yeah. With
David Pileggi (1:03:44)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (1:03:44)
all all the royalties from my book. That will get me
David Pileggi (1:03:47)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (1:03:48)
the Uber to the airport.
David Pileggi (1:03:50)
Listen.
I’ll put the put the trip on layaway for you. Just put it down and let
Dru Johnson (1:03:56)
be you’ll be my Kmart for me. I appreciate it. Thanks once again.
David Pileggi (1:03:59)
Right. I’ll give you a blue.
Just wa look for the blue light.
Dru Johnson (1:04:03)
That’s right. Thanks again for your wisdom, David.
David Pileggi (1:04:05)
Okay, bye bye.
