Dru Johnson (00:00)
Do all the random parts of scripture fit together? Well, today we’re joined by Doctor Sandra Richter. She has written this book, The Epic of Eden, which has been out for twenty years, but she’s made a revised edition with a curriculum to go alongside of it, and she thinks that you can put all of these parts of scripture together.
So we’re going to an extended conversation about her work over the last 20 years, how people have been interacting with her ideas, and we’re going to talk a little bit about that idea of the sons of God and divine beings being in God’s counsel and fallen angels a little bit as well, among other various topics that I peppered her with. If you like what we do here at the Center for Hebraic Thought and the Biblical Mind podcast, you can like and subscribe on our YouTube channel. You can give us a rating at your local podcast.com.
Outlet and if you want to give a recurring gift, get you our donor series book. It’s only for donors, nobody else. And if you want to give a regular gift, you can do that at thebiblicalmind dot org slash give. And now on to Sandy Richter.
Sandy Richter (01:01)
okay, so an honest answer is I don’t run into many hurdles. Um
Dru Johnson (01:06)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (01:07)
yeah, when I’m interacting with a general audience and I tell them what I’m trying to accomplish, which is give them back their Bible, connect Eden to the New Jerusalem, reintroduce them to their people, they’re like, Really? You can do that? That’s usually the response I get. And it’s it’s not
It’s not um any sort of um negative response meaning pushback. It’s more you can do that? Are
Dru Johnson (01:37)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (01:37)
you sure you can do that? And I’m grateful to say that at this point uh the book and the materials earned enough of a reputation that I don’t have to argue for it myself. Other people will step into the conversation and say, Yeah, yeah, it actually does that. So
Probably the only negative that I receive is the recognition that this is gonna take some effort, that
Dru Johnson (02:07)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (02:08)
this i this is not gonna be a seven minute conversation. Uh if you’re doing the curriculum, which also got dropped this year, second edition, I am not nearly as cute in the second edition. I just have to say that out loud. but
Dru Johnson (02:23)
Wait, what do you mean by that?
You’re not nearly as cute.
Sandy Richter (02:25)
I’m well,
I’m almost twenty years older. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what I mean. Um
Dru Johnson (02:28)
Oh you mean the picture. Yeah.
Sandy Richter (02:34)
the study is much tighter. And I’m so grateful to Harper Christian Resources and Sarah Merisma, um, who works for them, that we we edited every script. We took the study guide from the ground up. It’s just a much tighter, cleaner process.
product. When we first produced the video curriculum, I was doing it with JD Wald at Seedbed, and neither of us had ever done this before. So it was this grand experiment, but we were also filming literally at midnight. Um so that was a bit of a problem. So with both the curriculum and with the book, there’s a level of investment, right? We’ve worked really hard.
to keep the the new book. Here’s the new book. Ta da. Um, to let me see, it’s under two hundred and fifty pages, but it’s still two hundred and fifty pages. So yeah.
Dru Johnson (03:33)
I was gonna say it’s slightly thicker, yeah, but not too thick. Yep.
Sandy Richter (03:37)
Right.
Dru Johnson (03:38)
And going back to your first comment about this is not gonna be easy, um, and
Sandy Richter (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (03:44)
and you can do this. Like I I wonder, you know, you teach undergraduates like I do, so you kind of get a fresh boat of people coming in from the churches every every year. What do you
What do you suppose is in charge of the well, you can’t do this mentality. Like that those things don’t go together or this is as you call it a a disorganized closet uh of things. Yeah.
Sandy Richter (04:05)
Right, right, right.
Well, the you can do this doesn’t come from the eighteen year olds. The you can do this comes from the fifty year olds who
Dru Johnson (04:14)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (04:14)
have been sitting in the pew faithfully for thirty five years, taking, as you know, Christian faith one one over and over
Dru Johnson (04:26)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (04:26)
and over again, who have never had a adult. uh
Adult educational program actually dive in and say, We can do this. And that’s one of my pet peeves. Uh I it’s a pet peeve when I get their 18-year-olds, and it’s a pet peeve when I stand in front of their 50-year-olds. These are intelligent, educated, passionate people. Why aren’t we offering them the content of their faith? And what happens every time I teach this live, I get emails.
Dru I honestly get emails easily on a weekly basis of people saying, my goodness, you’ve changed my life. And I can’t ask for anything more than that, uh, as as a Christian, as a scholar. Um I all the time. For the first time, I understand what the plan is that Eden and the New Jerusalem go together, that this is one big rescue plan. How do we get Adam back into the garden?
I know who Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are now. I can actually
Dru Johnson (05:33)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (05:33)
open my Old Testament and I know where I am and what I’m doing for the first time. I get that feedback all the time. Honestly, there’s a little bit of a barrier to get people to start the book, start the curriculum, but once they get through the first lesson, the first chapter, they’re hooked. And they’re hooked because they want to know. They want to know.
So yeah.
Dru Johnson (06:03)
Yeah,
that kind of yeah, I’ve experienced the same. It it it is slightly depressing and exciting when you have middle aged people who have been trapped in a way of of viewing the Bible and then you give them s what to us might seem like very basic tools. And then it you know, we talk about liberal arts being the liberating arts. And you can see them liberated
Sandy Richter (06:21)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (06:22)
to now think in fresh ways about the scripture to listen to it with fresh ears. Um, but again, I’m you know, part of me is
thinking, okay, the fifty year old you people my age in their fifties, if
Sandy Richter (06:32)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (06:33)
they were in church, at least in their younger years, they would have gone to church multiple times a week and they would have been doing
Sandy Richter (06:39)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (06:39)
Bible study or Bible memorization. So you’re like, what do you think happened just f you know, culturally, sociologically to those people?
Sandy Richter (06:48)
Right. I’d love to hear your feedback on this as well. I now get that influx of emerging adults in my classroom. Um and I’m at Westmount College. We are we have a a solid reputation for academic challenge. So these are good students. Um
Dru Johnson (07:09)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (07:09)
they care. And their biblical education, unless they went to a private Christian school, so it’s it
That’s gonna upgrade it. But their biblical education typically consists of two pedagogical objectives be nice and Jesus loves you. And that is
Dru Johnson (07:29)
Hmm. Okay.
Sandy Richter (07:30)
all they know. And as they realize that there is so much more to know, nine times out of ten, and and I’m thinking about my grade book right now, uh
they are thrilled to learn it. Granted I put them through their paces. Granted they thought this was going to be a Bible class, so it was going to be advanced Sunday school. And they’re like, my gosh, you’re giving us a real midterm. Like
Dru Johnson (07:58)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (07:58)
we have to write essays. We have to memorize things. Um but it’s really a very rare thing where I have a student really push back against the material. They’re they’re excited to learn it. And often, often
They are angry at their churches when they sit through my class. And they’re not angry because I’ve been doing the let’s hate evangelicals and deconstruct our faith origins. I’m doing the exact opposite.
Dru Johnson (08:29)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (08:29)
They’re angry because no one taught them this before.
Dru Johnson (08:33)
Yeah. That’s the the phrase I hear all the time. Why did my church never tell me this? Um
Sandy Richter (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (08:38)
and I used to be a pastor full time, so part of me is like, They might have had a six part sermon series on it, you just didn’t pay attention. Right. But but
Sandy Richter (08:44)
Right, right. You were you were
flirting you were flirting with a girl sitting next to you and you missed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dru Johnson (08:49)
Yeah.
But it wasn’t taught regularly enough that you picked it up in the water like uh like other things. Um, but that go ahead.
Sandy Richter (08:56)
Yeah, and I’m I’m I’m so
intrigued by that. And if I had I mean I was a youth pastor as well. Um, but I was a youth pastor in a community of faith where rather than and and forgive me for this, but rather than taking the summers off, which
Dru Johnson (09:14)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (09:14)
so many of the churches I’m involved with now do, which is insanity if you’re a youth pastor. Yeah,
Dru Johnson (09:21)
Time they’re sitting around, yeah.
Sandy Richter (09:23)
yeah. Summertime is where
the all-night prayer meetings and the we’re gonna do an entire weekend and let’s dive in needs to happen. I’m not exactly sure what we’re doing and why we’re doing it, but it’s not producing a great product.
Dru Johnson (09:39)
Hmm. Yeah, I I’ve I’ve had a lot of incoming students who are very nice and they understand that they need to be good to the world and which is not a bad thing. I wish I was better at that myself.
Sandy Richter (09:48)
Yep, yep. No? Yep.
Dru Johnson (09:52)
Um, but yeah, there’s not a lot of substance. And also, you know, I teach a gospels class where they don’t know what to do when they’re confronted with the real Jesus in in the gospels, where he’s not nice and he’s speaking indirectly
Sandy Richter (10:02)
Mm, he’s not nice.
Dru Johnson (10:03)
in order to fool people so they can’t, you know, so they can’t directly hear what he’s saying and he
hits people and or smacks them. Um so it oh
Sandy Richter (10:11)
uh And and I
I will have this conversation always, especially when okay, every time I teach in a public setting, I will have someone ask me why is the God of the Old Testament so different from the God of the New Testament.
Dru Johnson (10:25)
Thanks.
Sandy Richter (10:26)
My undergrads are are more shy of asking that question. Eventually they’ll get to it. But um when we get to the conquest, right? The
Dru Johnson (10:35)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (10:35)
conquest and settlement, which as you know is
I mean, there are many reasons for us to pause over what’s going on in the conquest and the settlement. But as I wind up telling them before we’re done, you know, after they trust me, after they’ve got some groundwork here, is if you don’t like what Joshua’s doing in the conquest, you’re gonna hate the second coming.
Dru Johnson (11:01)
Yep.
Sandy Richter (11:02)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (11:03)
that’s I I mean uh kindred spirits here. That’s a the exact point
Sandy Richter (11:06)
Yeah, yeah.
Dru Johnson (11:07)
I draw them to is you you need to understand if you th you think the Old Testament’s violent, just wait. Uh there’s there’s yeah. Um
Sandy Richter (11:11)
Mm. Read the end of the New Testament. Yeah. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (11:18)
Okay, so that kind of move you’re making right there, right? So it’s
Sandy Richter (11:21)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (11:22)
uh this is what uh Epic of Eden, I think it’s probably why this thing has sold like gangbusters over the years, is it makes it connects all these tissues that are there naturally. I wonder just you as a scholar, uh I’m just interested in methodology here, but as a Hebrew Bible scholar, how do you
discern patterns in the text that go beyond mere, you know, that says this word over here and we see this word appear, you know, the games that people like to play. But what are your criteria for really discerning when there’s something there that needs to be paid attention to?
Sandy Richter (11:55)
Hmm. And I know you know this, that actually is a very complex question. And it’s uh it’s it’s yeah. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (12:01)
I threw it out like it was a simple one, but yeah.
Sandy Richter (12:04)
Um and I think it’s it’s a it’s a good word for why we need people truly trained in the text. You know, I you probably get this question all the time as well. Yes, the gospel is a simple enough story for a child to understand, embrace, and say yes to. But the Bible itself is
an ancient, very sophisticated, complex document that actually takes expertise. I on my Substack that we were talking about before we started recording, I dared to write an article. Please don’t confuse your Google search for my PhD. And
Dru Johnson (12:44)
Perfect.
Sandy Richter (12:45)
it’s it’s a a title that it captures people’s attention because it sounds so stinking arrogant, right?
Dru Johnson (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (12:53)
Um, and in reality, what it is is an essay on basic hermeneutics. That’s what
Dru Johnson (12:57)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (12:57)
it is. So hermeneutics, the fancy word for the science of interpreting scripture. And that’s what you and I do in making these connections, that there are linguistic connections, there are thematic connections, there are typological connections that our biblical authors are intending to make. And when we get in trouble.
is when we go beyond the intent of the original author. That when when we start drawing connections that are, you know, um uh I I don’t even know, neat and cool for us,
Dru Johnson (13:36)
Yes.
Sandy Richter (13:37)
but are well beyond the biblical author’s intention or capacity, then we start getting in trouble.
Dru Johnson (13:44)
Yeah, that’s the uh and I don’t know how to nicely tell people when they say, well they use this word here. And and I will I will also say some people have pointed out some things that I was dismissive of initially and then the more I
Sandy Richter (13:57)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (13:57)
considered it, I thought, well actually maybe there is something there that I’ve never considered, right? even lay people have pointed out things like that to me. But
Sandy Richter (14:05)
Oh, my
seventeen and a half year olds sitting in intro to Old Testament do that to me sometimes and it’s it’s good and humbling and reminds me that we’re all on a journey here. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (14:18)
Yeah, and in that uh people can see things that we can’t see be because of our expertise sometimes. Um the
Sandy Richter (14:23)
Mm, mm.
Dru Johnson (14:25)
but it is difficult to figure out what do you say to somebody when they are so entranced by like this, there’s this idea here, and then they’re it’s square peg round hole, they’re really reading it into the tech, they’re they’re doing more projection. Um, and you both want like you want that level of curiosity, um, but
Sandy Richter (14:42)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (14:43)
there’s not an easy way to help them understand why that
maybe isn’t what, you know, uh Deuteronomy and uh Isaiah are doing or something. I wonder if like do we do you have a good way to deal with this with lay people? I’m look I’m just looking for tips and tricks at this point. From a senior scholar.
Sandy Richter (15:00)
Okay. Tips and tricks. Well,
that business of having enough time with an audience to give them some basic tools so they start discovering their own errors, that’s really helpful.
Dru Johnson (15:13)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (15:14)
And as you know, um the original Epic of Eden and the second edition, I I I start with the problem that we have one big messy closet.
a lifetime of investment in learning about the Bible, but we still feel uh in incapable of using the Bible. And I have very little trouble convincing people of that reality. In fact, all I have to do is throw out the question, why do people struggle with the study of the Old Testament? And you know, hands pop up all over the place. So convincing them of the problem isn’t hard. And
In my experience, each time I hand them a tool, they get pretty excited about that tool. So as you know, the first thing I do is try to get them across the Great Barrier. And when I first started doing this, I had to convince people that they were ethnocentric, another
Dru Johnson (16:15)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (16:15)
big word that means that we assume that our cultural norms are normative for the entire planet.
For the last six thousand years of human civilization. I don’t have to convince people of that anymore. You know, we live in a a a DEI generation where people are very sensitive to the fact that the way I see the world might be different than the way someone else sees the world. But now I have to teach them that as you step back into the old testament, you’re having one of those cross-cultural experiences.
And just like you would not get off the bus in Encinitas, Mexico and start screaming about the fact that there was only one Starbucks in the entire town, you know, that that would make you just a curmudgeonly, you know, clawed. Now I have to tell you, when you get off the bus in Genesis
For you to start screaming about the fact that women don’t have the same level of sexual agency that you have in the twenty first century at Cornell University,
Dru Johnson (17:25)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (17:26)
um, that makes you just as much uh culture uh a cultural incompetent as as it would have made you in in Sonatas, Mexico. So that that is now a regular theme.
Dru Johnson (17:42)
I love that. Um, I you know, on this topic, this has come up just recently on social media. It comes up over and over again. I hear the patriarchy, the patriarchal society of genesis. I wonder
Sandy Richter (17:52)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (17:52)
what you think of, you know, Cynthia Schaefer Elliott and people like Carol Myers have pushed for this heterarchical view that there’s mixed power relationships going on. I wonder have you heard that view and yeah.
Sandy Richter (18:03)
Yeah, yeah, I have, and I’ve I’ve read everything Carol Myers has ever written, and
uh Cindy Schaefer Elliott, I I know and respect. Um I I mean I think there certainly is space to recognize. Uh to quote my big fat Greek wedding, yes, the man is the head, but the woman is the neck that turns
Dru Johnson (18:27)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (18:27)
the head. And that is very true of traditional cultures. Um
It and you don’t have to travel very far to see that. Uh you can head over to the north end in Boston and drop yourself into a truly Italian neighborhood. Um, come meet my in-laws who are truly uh a uh Greek immigrants.
Dru Johnson (18:49)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (18:49)
Um so traditional cultures, women don’t have the same level of public authority, but they have a lot of authority within the family. My my pushback on these issues.
is that patriarchy has the term patriarchy has become a um a kind of cultural watch word right now.
Dru Johnson (19:12)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (19:13)
And I don’t know about you, but I’ve I’ve raised a couple of teenage girls and I’ve seen more than one pair of black combat boots stomp on my kitchen floor yelling down with the patriarchy. Um but that’s a cultural
Dru Johnson (19:27)
Yes.
Sandy Richter (19:27)
watch word. That’s not anthropology.
Anthropology says we have traditional cultures, we have bureaucratic cultures. And in traditional cultures, there’s either going to be matriarchal leadership or patriarchal leadership. And that is different than down with the patriarchy. So
Dru Johnson (19:49)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (19:49)
Israel, as you know so well, was indeed a traditional, tribal, patriarchal culture. And again, if we’re going to do the cross-cultural thing, we need to step into that. So
Um, stepping into that helps us put our own ethnocentric glasses to the side
Dru Johnson (20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (20:11)
and do the cross-cultural thing where women do not have public authority. Um yes, there are rare cases where women inherit. Yes, there are rare cases when an abigail steps forward and in her deep wisdom.
bypasses her husband’s foolishness and keeps her extended family alive. But when David comes and sends a proposal, she takes it because
Dru Johnson (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (20:40)
she knows that’s the pathway to power. Uh
Dru Johnson (20:43)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (20:44)
it’s it’s a different culture. And uh yeah, so I’m rambling at this point, but
Dru Johnson (20:49)
No,
no, it’s I I think you’re highlighting the fact that it’s very easily easy to pr m project and then morally judge based on the projection, right? Um as well.
Sandy Richter (20:58)
Mm. Okay.
Dru Johnson (21:00)
And it’s difficult once you’ve made that moral judgment to then kind of have a fair, even handed read of the situation, I think. Um which I I think we do today.
Sandy Richter (21:05)
Yeah. And and sorry.
Dru Johnson (21:09)
I I do just as much today, I guess. Um, yeah.
Sandy Richter (21:12)
Well, I think we’re all subject to this weakness, right? This is and I and I tell my undergrads this as well, because again, we live in a a DEI world at this point in time. And they’re spring loaded to uh villainize and
Dru Johnson (21:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (21:31)
and cancel, right? Um and we’re we’re all looking for villains so that we don’t have to be the villain. Uh but
Dru Johnson (21:39)
Right.
Sandy Richter (21:41)
in
Israel’s world in this traditional tribal patriarchal world, they have a particular system by which they’re running their society, just like we do. And generally it worked. So I
Dru Johnson (21:55)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (21:56)
want to be able to step across my own cultural barrier, understand their world the way it functioned, but here’s the beauty of the gospel is that even in that traditional tribal
Patriarchal world, Yahweh is regularly critiquing their culture. He doesn’t
Dru Johnson (22:17)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (22:18)
canonize it, as you know, I use that phrase in my work. He doesn’t canonize their culture. He communicates through it because how else is he going to reveal himself to an ancient society unless he communicates through it? But then he’s constantly tweaking it. And
Dru Johnson (22:40)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (22:41)
It’s in those um points of conflict where I think, and you asked me this question a few minutes ago, where I think we can truly find God revealing his character.
Dru Johnson (22:55)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (22:56)
So in Genesis two twenty-four, when he says a man will leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, hello team, this is an iron age society. Men don’t leave anything.
It’s the women that have to do the leaving. It’s the women who bear the burden of leaving their family, moving in with their mother in law, think about that for a moment, having to
Dru Johnson (23:20)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (23:22)
to relearn every skill they’ve ever been taught according to their mother in law’s authority, who are dealing with the homesickness and the transfer of of identity into a new tribal group. Women are
Are bearing the burden for this entire system. We know that anthropologically, archaeologically. And yet Genesis says a man will leave his father and his mother. And it’s not because the writer of Genesis is unaware of his own culture. I think that’s a critique. And it’s and it’s a critique that is shouting at this young man who has every advantage in this system. Hey, you right there.
From this point forward, that young woman standing next to you, Edwin Yamauchi predicts fourteen, fifteen years old. That young woman standing next to you, from this point onward, she is your closest kin ally. And although your culture is shouting at you that your father is the most important person in the room, after him it’s your brothers, and then eventually it’s going to be your son, Genesis says.
It’s the young woman standing next to you.
Dru Johnson (24:37)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (24:38)
That’s a heavy duty critique.
Dru Johnson (24:41)
Yeah, so I think this uh you just recalled to mind the very first time I heard you speak at I think it was at SBL, maybe one of those TED Talk things. And I remember
Sandy Richter (24:49)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (24:51)
thinking, Wow, her view of the Torah, like she’s doing something different than I hear a lot of people doing. Uh magical it seemed to me at the time. I think it took me a while to figure it out. But I th and correct me if I’m wrong, or maybe I’m taking this too far, is you kind of run into people who
I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus. But who think that the Torah is essentially golden and from heaven and like, you know, it creates the this pristine society that is exactly perfect as God wants it. And then you have people who, uh, I think where I would fall into this camp, say, Well, it does present God’s character and these things, but it it’s a lot of restricting, you know, it’s not the way God wants things. Like it’s not like he wants to live in a tent and be cut off from his people and this or, you know, managed by his people, you know, in this way.
but this is the way that it can be, given the fact that everything is kind of wrecked and as you say, the redemption is on its way through this this whole process. Um, but those seem to be uh a lot of the debates are basically just people who want to have a Pristonized version of of law versus those who want to have kind of an accommodationist view of law. I don’t really have a word for it. And I take you to be on the latter if I if I’m reading you correctly. not an insult, that’s a
Sandy Richter (26:05)
Okay. Well those are those are
those are new category titles for me. So I’ll take it, sure. Okay.
Dru Johnson (26:14)
Yeah.
well, and I think what in uh this is going somewhere, don’t worry. Uh this also leads to this issue of when you do like I’ve run into this with a lot of people, especially lay people, uh, who have read a lot of our books and they’ve read books of our colleagues and they’re very intelligent people and they’re really trying to piece things together.
but they’re doing it on their own and they and sometimes it’s the disposition they have towards the text or the disposition they have towards Iron Age Israel, or they’re not entering, you know, they’re not getting on the bus and realizing they stepped off in a different location. Um, and I so I’m wondering what you think are, you know, the kind of the rookie mistakes here that we have all made at some point when we’re dealing with lay people, because we want to do this public theology. We want we want people to be publicly engaged in Bible studies. But I d
do feel like there are some things we don’t want to happen as well. And so I wonder what are the things you see that you want us to be more cautious about?
Sandy Richter (27:15)
Well, I do talk a lot about canonizing culture. And by that I’m I I made up that term. So if you see it anywhere, no, they stole it from me. uh
Dru Johnson (27:25)
One noted.
Sandy Richter (27:27)
the idea, of course, that we we have a canon, right? And the the canon is uh is limited. So the community of faith over the millennia has decided uh which of these books are actually authoritative. So
Take that concept and apply it to culture. Um, we’ve we’ve as you know, in the guild, we’ve got people who don’t think the Bible has any authority, so it really doesn’t matter what the culture might be doing. And then there are those within the community of faith that are like, No, the Bible is my rule of faith and praxis. And that typical person is gonna struggle, and here’s a rookie mistake, to separate
The message of the gospel from the vehicle of culture
Dru Johnson (28:19)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (28:19)
through which the gospel is arriving. And what we want to be careful to do is to not canonize culture. So don’t canonize the biblical culture and don’t canonize our own culture,
Dru Johnson (28:33)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (28:35)
but to recognize that culture is always a mixed bag of the good, the bad, the ugly. Some
Cultures I would say by the definition of the character of God, which is the definition of good, by the way. some cultures do better than others, for sure. but culture’s culture, yeah? And we’re a fallen race. And so it’s important for the biblical reader and challenging for the biblical reader, to say, okay, the fact that Jesus uh
had longish hair and probably a close cropped beard, those are ethnic markers for a first
Dru Johnson (29:18)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (29:19)
century Jew. That’s not something I have to do as a 21st century preacher. Or the fact that Abraham had absolute authority over his household and Sarah had no public authority is those are cultural norms. Those are that’s not the gospel.
And that’s a mistake we make regularly. And one of the things I work at very hard in all of my teaching is to help introduce people to the various Old Testament cultures so they’re better able to see it, to spot it when it happens, and to start separating.
Dru Johnson (30:01)
Yeah. And you know, when it it’s one of the easy things to do is to point out where the the Hebrews were very much like their neighbors and then where they
Sandy Richter (30:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (30:10)
drew hard distinct lines in in in some ways
Sandy Richter (30:12)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (30:13)
the Torah is critiquing both them and their neighbors culturally.
Sandy Richter (30:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (30:17)
I it’s funny you say I canonizing culture, I feel like today, you know, you said the DEI culture we have today, in a sense and I’ve had three teenage daughters at one one point back in history
and and it’s
Sandy Richter (30:28)
With black combat
boots. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (30:30)
yes, actually, one
of them. But who am I to complain given my history? Um the uh but there is a kind of canonization of culture more generally, like every culture is wonderful, of course, except for our our own culture or whatever. Um
Sandy Richter (30:43)
Yeah. Right, right, right, right.
Dru Johnson (30:46)
and you know, I’ve lived overseas in several different cultures and different continents, and um I have to say you have to live somewhere for quite a while, but you do start realizing, oh, there’s sinful patterns in this culture, right?
Sandy Richter (30:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (30:58)
And I I think we’re a little hesitant to point that out that this these are patterns of sins that have been adopted by and encouraged by particular cultures. And you know, in American culture it’s very easy for us to say, you know, well sports or gambling culture or whatever um maybe are problematic. Uh I’m not making any pronouncements, but
Sandy Richter (31:15)
Or how about yeah,
or how about a level of consumerism that knows no
Dru Johnson (31:20)
Yes. Yeah. Is
Sandy Richter (31:21)
boundaries, that you know, the concept of Sabbath me and Sabbath as an environmentalist means not only do you stop consuming for a day, you stop producing for a day. And that
Dru Johnson (31:33)
Yep. The factories have to stop.
Sandy Richter (31:35)
that is not American culture. And I and if Jeremiah were here, I think he would probably point that out. Um yeah, and of course
Every community thinks that they’ve actually spotted the ideal and you know that we’ve got it down and and there’s only one character in this universe who’s got it down and this is the triune God that we worship and this is why we’re constantly being called to be conformed to the image, because we need to be conformed to the image.
Dru Johnson (32:10)
So looking to the the new heavens, new earth, the restoration of all things, um
Sandy Richter (32:14)
Okay.
Dru Johnson (32:16)
what what role do you think, you know, Nigerian and, you know, Brazilian and American culture are gonna play in those days?
Sandy Richter (32:24)
Oh yeah yeah yeah.
Yeah. How fun is that to think about a um cosmic worship service where every um every colored face, every tongue tribe and nation, every um every worship chorus that’s coming through in every language we can imagine.
is is actually happening. And
Dru Johnson (32:55)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (32:56)
every once in a while, glory to God, I land in a worship service like that. Um just a couple of weeks ago I was down at Oasis uh church in LA and it it was that moment. Um and you know people are dancing and hopping and crying out to God to show up and and I feel like I catch a glimpse of what that’s gonna look like. Um
the the beauty of the God that we serve. Um he truly loves every tongue, tribe, and nation, and he will not rest until everyone is called home. And meaning called back home. Uh so what exactly it’s gonna look like, um i you know my work, you know that I think that the entire rescue plan is targeted at getting Adam back into the garden.
And we we had a mission that was given to us in Genesis one and two. And the mission was to deploy the amazing resources of this planet to build the city of man at uh within the kingdom of God. There’s my Presbyterian seminary training coming out, and and we didn’t do it, right? Instead we we opted to build Adam’s world and we’re we’re
busy you and I suffering in the midst of Adam’s world. But I truly believe that the creator of the cosmos, he had a good plan, and there is no plan B. Uh plan
Dru Johnson (34:37)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sandy Richter (34:39)
A is get everybody back in the garden and let’s give this another shot. Um we just have a huge bloody rescue plan between Adam’s choice and Adam’s restoration.
I don’t know if that’s answering your question, Drew, and I’ll shut up now. But
Dru Johnson (34:56)
Yeah. No, I I like it how you
um you maintain this which I I think I see in scripture as well, this total affirmation of differentiated cultures, languages, tribes, clans as something fundamentally good to God’s kingdom, but
Sandy Richter (35:10)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (35:11)
also uh simultaneously the ability to critique that all of these are wrecked just like everything just like the dirt and the in in our souls. Um and so
Whatever it is about us is gonna constantly be in this tension. I mean, it’s a different way of saying the kind of the already not yet in some ways
Sandy Richter (35:26)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (35:27)
is that uh at a cultural level level, there’s something good about the difference and there is something that needs to be constantly critiqued and uh it it also makes me think that, you know, the the project that you’re trying to describe across scripture, and I just talked to Heath Thomas, I don’t know if you know Heath, uh Prophet Scholar. Yeah, so
Sandy Richter (35:43)
I love Heath Thomas. Yes.
Dru Johnson (35:45)
I was talking to him actually maybe on the podcast, but um
Talking about how the prophets had to be the shrewdest cultural critics of their day because they’re trying to figure out what does the Torah look like in their present circumstance, hundreds and hundreds of years after the case. And so I I just don’t I think a lot of Christians don’t think the average Christian’s job is to to be a cultural critic and especially not a self-reflective critic of their own culture, except in these culture wary ways. Like that’s wrong. This is right.
And it sounds like you’re calling us to something of a more nuanced understanding of ourselves and and the cultures within which we swim, if I hear you correctly.
Sandy Richter (36:23)
Yes, yes. And this my gosh. We are it’s it seems like this is the great weak one of the great weaknesses of humanity that we’re constantly looking for a culture to canonize. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (36:38)
Yeah.
Sandy Richter (36:39)
And you know, we can easily look back on our own history. you know, Jim Crow South and we can talk about how we were canonizing
white European culture and and therefore villainizing another culture. We can look at that and we can say that was evil. And I think everyone within your shot can say, yes, that was evil. But we are we are doing something very similar all over again that we are now you know, we’ll we’ll choose in this season whoever is in power. And that group gets to get demonized. And
Dru Johnson (37:14)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (37:16)
and and then we think
that once we elevate the the group that has been oppressed that somehow we’re all gonna reach nirvana. And there are so many illustrations that unfortunately once the oppressed culture winds up in power, they start doing the exact same thing. Um and I think that’s what Animal Farm was all about. Yeah, yeah,
Dru Johnson (37:40)
yeah, yeah.
Sandy Richter (37:42)
yeah, yeah. So all that to say, um
As Christians, we are citizens of another kingdom. We have a definition of what is good and what is moral. And and his name is Jesus. And if we will submit our own will and our own cultural norms to that definition of good, uh, we will be the most powerful cultural change agents on the
Dru Johnson (38:07)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (38:07)
planet. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (38:09)
As we were designed to be, I think. Um
Sandy Richter (38:11)
No.
Dru Johnson (38:12)
before I let you go, I do want to ask you about your your writing, uh b both your substack, what’s going on there,
and then I wanna talk about the
Sandy Richter (38:20)
Oh.
Dru Johnson (38:20)
new edition of the book.
Sandy Richter (38:22)
Okay. So the new edition of the book. I’m holding it up right here. Cool new cover. Woo! Um and I actually had several speaking engagements vote on that cover. Um, yeah, because
Dru Johnson (38:33)
Oh. Smart.
Sandy Richter (38:35)
it wasn’t the one I wanted. And I I finally wound up at this this big gig up in Portland and there was a guy who’s like his whole deal is marketing. And I asked him privately, Why do I like this other cover? And he looked at the ground.
his hands in his pocket, took a deep breath, is because that’s an older cover. I was like, okay. I was like, okay. Yeah, I was like,
Dru Johnson (39:00)
Well, at least he was honest.
Sandy Richter (39:03)
shut up now. No, just kidding. Um, okay. So what is new? The book is is pushing 20 years old. I can’t even fathom that.
Dru Johnson (39:12)
I
mean, I’m asking also ’cause I’m revising a book r I have the opportunity to revise an a a new edition and I’m thinking, well what like should I just lightly revise or should I go in there and do a deep scrub? So which did you do? I figured.
Sandy Richter (39:22)
Right. I did the deep scrub. And and
it’s and and it’s who I am, right? I just I swear I just make life harder than it needs to be. Ask ask my husband, he will say amen and hallelujah. Um partly because I care so much, right? I
Dru Johnson (39:40)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (39:41)
just I care so much. So although I think the average reader will say, yeah, this is this is the same book, um, no that
I spent an entire year um
Dru Johnson (39:53)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (39:53)
either rewriting or thinking about rewriting every line in that book. Um so the the goal is the same, the message is the same, the dysfunctional closet is still in there, but what I have updated um massively, the bibliography is massively updated because it’s been nearly 20 years.
Dru Johnson (40:16)
Right.
Sandy Richter (40:16)
And one
of the things I I did in the book repeatedly is, hey, serious layperson, if you want to keep chasing this down, you need three resources on your shelf. You need
Dru Johnson (40:25)
Yeah.
Sandy Richter (40:26)
an anthropological study, you need an atlas, and you you need a history book. And so all three that I had recommended in the first edition are now out of print. So those had to be replaced. Um I’m also uh I’ve done church education long enough that I know there are people out there who want to do the deep dive.
And so the bibliography is constantly structured around here’s a really accessible resources, here’s the deep dive. Um,
Dru Johnson (40:53)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (40:53)
I move the bibliography the onto the page you’re reading, which all the the theology of popular books is that’s that’s a death knell to a popular book. And I’m like,
Dru Johnson (41:06)
Yeah.
Sandy Richter (41:06)
I I hate digging through the back of a book to find
Dru Johnson (41:09)
I do too.
Sandy Richter (41:10)
out who you just cited. So that’s all been moved onto the page. Go ahead.
Dru Johnson (41:13)
I’m I’m making that decision
right now with a book. end notes
Sandy Richter (41:16)
Okay.
Dru Johnson (41:17)
or so you’re saying no endnotes. Go just keep it right on the page. Okay. Okay.
Sandy Richter (41:19)
Footnotes. I did footnotes. That’s what I did. Um,
we we’ve updated the graphics, we’ve added additional illustrations, we’ve expanded the glossary. I have updated the ethnocentric conversation. That’s probably the most updated conversation
Dru Johnson (41:35)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (41:35)
because uh we’ve changed and
Dru Johnson (41:38)
Yes.
Sandy Richter (41:40)
now now I don’t have to tell people they’re ethnocentric, but now I do have to tell them to be good guests in somebody else’s culture. Um
Harry Potter made a showing. Brandon Sanderson made a showing. So, you know, pop culture has been updated a bit. Um, we uh expanded cultures uh chapters that got shortchanged. So Noah and Abraham have more press now. the book is evened out. So whereas the first chapter was like 35 pages and then the the rest were like fifteen.
Uh now everybody’s closer to like fifteen pages. yeah, I just think it’s uh it’s more accessible. That’s what I think. Oh, and my favorite part, whereas I had nine chapters in the first book. I have twelve now. And I’m an old testament person. So
Dru Johnson (42:35)
Of course, yes. Yeah.
Sandy Richter (42:38)
I I actually wrote to my editor when we were done and I said, I have eleven chapters. I can’t have eleven chapters. She’s like easy peasy.
Let’s turn that fabulous introduction into chapter one. So there are
Dru Johnson (42:51)
there you go. Nice.
Sandy Richter (42:52)
there are twelve disciples, there are twelve tribes, there are twelve judges, and there are twelve chapters of the Epic of Eden, a Christian mentory.
Dru Johnson (42:59)
Yeah. And and when there are when
there were eleven disciples, they had to get another
one to bring back in, right? So yeah.
Sandy Richter (43:03)
I know, I know, right there. So
Dru Johnson (43:06)
Um, great. And um the Substack, you you were telling me about
Sandy Richter (43:11)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (43:11)
the the Sons of God thing that we’ve been talking about. What do we do with the
Sandy Richter (43:14)
Ah, yes, yes.
Dru Johnson (43:16)
I’m a very earthy person when it comes to Sons of God, very soil soil
Sandy Richter (43:19)
Perfect point.
Dru Johnson (43:20)
driven down on earth. Um, but we’ve been having these discussions uh with people from the kind of divine world council being
so you’ve been writing about this in your sub stack?
Sandy Richter (43:31)
Yeah, so with you know, the publishers want you on Substack. And honestly Yes you are. Yes.
Dru Johnson (43:35)
Yeah, I’m aware. I’m resisting.
Sandy Richter (43:39)
But here’s the cool thing about Substack is it’s the blod blog of the current generation. And it gives you that chance as a writer, an author, a professor, to take stuff you wish you could say to the world and hey, say it to the world.
Dru Johnson (43:55)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (43:55)
So what I started doing, oh gosh, I s I started mine probably
Two years ago at this point when we were Yeah. Hey, that’s my goal in life. Um,
Dru Johnson (44:02)
you were ahead of the curve. Yeah. Yeah.
Sandy Richter (44:08)
uh, we started it when I was releasing the study on Deborah. And that’s one of my video curriculums. It’s it’s it’s way up there on favorites, uh, because it’s all about the people of God recognizing the territory that God has already promised
Dru Johnson (44:27)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (44:28)
and getting their their
rears in gear and getting out there and winning it because it takes the cycle of the book of judges and it overlays it with this the life cycle of the church and I love drawing that connection. Okay, so I started with Deborah. So we were talking about a lot of women’s issues and the book of judges in general. And now I’m transitioning to the second edition of Epic. And so one of the things I did with the Substack is I dropped my new material
onto Substack. So
Dru Johnson (45:00)
Yeah.
Sandy Richter (45:01)
um he brought us on Eagle’s Wings, Exodus 19. I actually found the 19th century reports from Audubon of eagles carrying their babies on their wings. How much fun is that? But one of the things that got shortchanged in the first run of Epic, and by the way, all of your my Substack is totally free. Please sign on. I would love
Dru Johnson (45:24)
Thanks.
Sandy Richter (45:24)
anyone and everyone there. Um
So one of the the covenant mediators who got shortchanged in the first edition was Noah, right? And so I expanded that chapter, which gave me space to do a deeper dive on the most controversial passage in the Noah story, which is Genesis six, one through four. uh and in those days
The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and they took wives, whoever they chose, um, and their offspring in those days were the Nephilim, they were the mighty men of old, um, the the Giborim Chail, um, the mighty warriors of the day. So I got a chance to do a deep dive on that because as I think you are aware, that passage has always been like
A moth to a flame for folks who are super interested in the divine realm, in the demonic, in spiritual warfare. And ever since the book of First Enoch emerged in the intertestamental period, we have had what I call a Percy Jackson read of that passage, which is where the gods are pursuing human women.
uh raping them um and producing uh semi-divine, semi-human offspring who become the half-bloods um living at Camp Half-Blood, battling monsters. And um as I say in the book, when I introduce that read of that passage and you know, just kind of flesh out the read, I say in the book,
the average biblical reader is sitting there going, Oh my gosh, this sounds a lot more like Percy Jackson than it does like the Bible. And then I say, and you would be right, because that read of Genesis 6, 1 through 4 comes from the Hellenistic world of the Greek readers of the Bible, or at least the Hellenized readers of the
Dru Johnson (47:46)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (47:46)
Bible in the intertestamental period, which is where first in it.
comes from. And um yeah, go ahead. Ask questions. Say what you’re thinking.
Dru Johnson (47:58)
Well, I will tell you, I became a Christian when I was twenty and I went to seminary when I was twenty four, which means I didn’t I read through the Bible, but I didn’t read it that closely until I got to seminary. But it also means that I started reading the Bible closely in Hebrew and Greek rather than, you know, that it was a weird experience, right?
Sandy Richter (48:17)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (48:18)
And I remember for years th I didn’t know anything about what you just said until I had students bring it up in class. And I’ve been reading it for, you know, decades.
Sandy Richter (48:27)
Right, right.
Dru Johnson (48:27)
I had
read Genesis six and just like, okay, yeah, there’s this story about the sons of God and the daughters of men, whoever they are. And uh
Sandy Richter (48:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (48:35)
and with students who brought this up. well, those were aliens. those were fallen angels, or those are like you know, half bloodshed,
Sandy Richter (48:38)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.
Dru Johnson (48:40)
you should say. Um, and and I could not figure out for the life of me where they were getting this from until um and and I I think this is all actually this would have been before Michael Heiser actually was writing at this point. So yeah, I I always think, Well, what do you what do you
Do with this interpretation? Because I don’t it doesn’t feel natural to me, and I I’m I’m completely open to it. If I like if I’m missing something in a text, I would be happy to combine, you know, to see some patterns if they’re there. Psalm 82 reads to me very naturally as an excoriation of the rulers of the earth and their lack of of willingness to do justice for the for the poor and the vulnerable. Um so I’m wondering.
when you deal with people who really want to come in hard and say, No, this is obviously what’s going on, what’s the pushback you give that at least can make them, you know, at least come around to s seeing why you don’t see it that clearly?
Sandy Richter (49:34)
Right. Well, let me say I came to faith in the Jesus movement, tail end of the
Dru Johnson (49:38)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (49:39)
Jesus movement, and Jesse Penn Lewis and Hal Lindsay and uh
Dru Johnson (49:44)
Mm. wow, yeah.
Sandy Richter (49:48)
Watchman Nee and um some fabulous converts, not so sure about Hal Lindsay being fabulous. Um,
Dru Johnson (49:56)
Right.
Sandy Richter (49:57)
this this was everywhere. This was everywhere. And um folks were all trying to read
uh the apocalyptic material of the Bible. That is another big fancy word that has to do with prophetic genre that um predicts the end times. Uh folks were all trying to read it into the 1960s, 1970s, early nineteen eighties. And so um I was raised on this stuff andor
Dru Johnson (50:28)
well.
Sandy Richter (50:28)
raised in the faith because I also didn’t come to faith until my late
Teens. Um, but it never sat right with me. It’s like this, this just does not seem like the character of God to me. And it faded, and as you have named, it’s it’s been largely resurrected with um Michael Heiser, who in his unseen realm, um, Heiser has good education. Um, he knows.
Dru Johnson (50:59)
Yep, he’s no fool.
Sandy Richter (51:01)
No, he knows about the Divine Council, he knows about uh apocalyptic literature, he’s read the intertestamental material. Um, but he is connected dots that I’m not willing to connect. And he also says in his introduction, and this this frustrates me, that the academic and evangelical world has been trying to hide the divine counsel from the average Christian for generations, but he has got
The secret key, the secret gnosis that comes from Gnosticism that’s going to unlock the spiritual realm. Well, I’ve been assigning Ted Lewis’s Anchor Bible Dictionary article on the Divine Council, which was published in 1991, ever since I became a professor. So I’m not hiding anything, and I don’t I don’t think my colleagues are either. Um, so
My deep dive on this, and again, your folk can read about it on my Substack where they can get all the footnotes and they can do the deep dive for themselves. Um, where in the world would be be reading about divine beings marrying? Because it’s not rape, it’s actually marriage. It’s the standard idiom for marriage.
Dru Johnson (52:14)
Mm-hmm. Right, taking them, yeah.
Sandy Richter (52:18)
Yeah, human women and producing Hector and Achilles. How?
How is that happening in in our Bibles in Genesis 6? And the big answer to that is that that sort of worldview, um, we can find it in Mesopotamia, we you know, in in you know, the the kind of mythological past that stands behind the patriarchs. Um, it’s always gods that are going after women. So you can find it there, and you can find it in Hellenism.
So we’re left with with two possible interpretations of Genesis six. Either someone is um pulling in straight up Mesopotamian mythology and dropping
Dru Johnson (53:09)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (53:10)
it into our Bibles, which could happen, or this actually isn’t in Genesis, but it’s in the interpretation of Genesis.
Dru Johnson (53:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (53:23)
That emerged in the intertestamental period. And it did emerge. And First Enoch um reports this. And it’s if you’ve read First Enoch, it is a bizarre book. Um, and not only do we have Nephilim and fallen angels, but they’re cannibals and they’re devouring humanity, and supposedly the flood wipes them out. Um this interpretation coming out of First Enoch, um
winds up Jude winds up quoting something out of Enoch. And
Dru Johnson (53:56)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (53:57)
as you know well, the New Testament quotes an array of Inter Testamental literature that doesn’t make a canon. uh
Dru Johnson (54:04)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (54:04)
Rather, first Enoch and the testimony of of Abraham and and a dozen other uh intertestamental books were refused canonical status and their interpretations were were rejected as well.
So when when Jube Jude is pulling that in, he’s pulling it in for rhetorical purposes. He’s not pulling it in to stamp it with uh with canonical authority. Um, but yeah, it keeps circulating. The early church fathers they put a hard stop to it. They said, no, no, no, this is not what’s in our Bible. John Calvin speaks out against it and and states, I can’t believe anyone endorses this. But it winds up in popular interpretation.
On a regular basis. What I think is going on, and I’ll say this quickly as our our minutes run out, um, I think there is a very strong intentional parallel between the flood and the second coming. Jesus
Dru Johnson (55:06)
Mm.
Sandy Richter (55:06)
says in uh the gospel of of Matthew that the coming of the Son of Man will be like the the days of Noah, and people will be giving and taking in marriage up until the very last day. Jesus states that.
Why does he state that? Because marriage is the foundation of society and civilization, even though our current generation is trying to undo that. Um, it’s the building block of civilization. So what Jesus is saying is people are gonna be doing what they do every day as though
Dru Johnson (55:42)
Right.
Sandy Richter (55:43)
the future is unlimited, right
Dru Johnson (55:45)
Blind to judgment.
Sandy Richter (55:47)
right up until the moment when the heavens part and the rider on the white horse appears.
Think what’s happening in Genesis 6, 1 through 4 is the same sort of statement that the sons of God that I think is an it it it now I’m you know I’m kind of grasping a little bit. It’s idiomatic for sure. It appears the idea of being a son of God runs all the way from Genesis to Revelation, it pops
Dru Johnson (56:19)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (56:20)
up regularly. Adam
is a son of God in Genesis 5. Um the angels are sons of God. The judges are sons of God. The kings of in Psalm two are sons of God. You and I are sons of God. Romans 8. uh There’s a lot, a lot, lot, lot there. Um but this could simply be an idiomatic way to refer to the men of the first generation, sons of God, daughters of men.
Could be just that. It could also be a reference to the Sumerian King list, which
Dru Johnson (56:58)
Hm.
Sandy Richter (56:58)
is an ancient document that also divides world history with a flood. There’s life
Dru Johnson (57:04)
Mm-hmm.
Sandy Richter (57:04)
before the flood in the Sumerian King’s list, and there’s life after the flood in the Sumerian King’s List. And guess what? All the royalty of the Sumerian King’s list before the flood are called sons of God. ah
Dru Johnson (57:18)
Hmm.
Sandy Richter (57:19)
So
Dru Johnson (57:21)
And they all live a a really
Sandy Richter (57:21)
It could do that as well.
Dru Johnson (57:22)
long time, depending on how you take numbers to work in those yeah situations. Yeah. Hmm.
Sandy Richter (57:25)
Yeah, they did. So all that to say,
not fallen angels having sex with humanity um for lots and lots of reasons and thanks for asking.
Dru Johnson (57:38)
Yeah. Well, and I think what you’re pointing out here is there are structures of thinking that you can trace across scripture that are pretty clear, repeated, you know, smack you in the face kind of things. And then when you run into something like that, this that is kind of a weird one off like what do we do with this
Sandy Richter (57:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (57:55)
little fr this little saying here, this little sentence, same thing with like, you know, Genesis ten, Nimrod, who is known as a mighty man before God, you know, like what
Sandy Richter (58:03)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (58:03)
do you do with these little things?
I tend to tread more cautiously around those and rather
Sandy Richter (58:07)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (58:07)
than build anything out of them. Uh and and so I yeah, I wonder if this is just a methodological note that we could we could all heed at some point. Okay. I’ll quit drilling down on that. Doctor Sandra Richter. Sandy, thank you so much for your wisdom and all these things.
Sandy Richter (58:24)
It is such a joy and a privilege to be here and um thanks for the invitation. I’ll look forward to next time.
