Dru Johnson (00:00)
Wouldn’t it be cool if there was an easy-to-use resource-free online where you could see how the Bible has been translated into hundreds of languages without having to know any of those languages? Well, today I’m going to be talking to Dr. Jost Zetzsche
He’s a scholar who works on Bible translation and specifically how the Bible has been translated around the world. He has created this website where you can go to any passage you’re working on, any section of any book of the Bible, and you can see dozens or even in some cases, hundreds of ways that different cultures and different languages have tackled.
How to translate that passage. It instantly opens up the world of Bible translation to us who don’t speak those other languages, and it helps us think about what is going on in each scripture. I thoroughly enjoyed this time talking to Jost. I never knew him before this, but to say that we vibed hard is an understatement. If you like what we do at the Biblical Mind, the Center for Hebraic Thought.
You can like and subscribe on our YouTube channel. You can also give us a rating on your podcast outlet. Maybe you could let somebody know about this podcast the things we do in the Bible Mind. I was thinking about some situations where it would be appropriate to really expose people to the work that we do that you enjoy so much, and that might be
if you get in an accident, I’m not suggesting that you get in an accident in order for this to happen. But if you happen to be in an accident, that’s a moment where you’re just standing around on the side of the road doing nothing with this other person that you’ve just met. Maybe you can share the good news of the biblical mind with them. For those of you that want to give towards the cause, you can go to thebiblicalmind.org slash give, where you can sign up for a recurring gift and you can get our brand new edition of a donor’s book.
collection of essays that came from our Bible and politics conference. Okay, that’s enough. Now to the episode.
Jost Zetzsche (01:53)
So the problem that this platform is trying to solve is that well I think there’s a number of problems. One problem that I have, I’m I’m a Protestant and obviously I go to a Protestant church and Protestant pastors tend to talk about the text they’re talking about and but they oft there’s often a s a full stop in the middle of the service and the pastor will say, but
What you read in your English Bible is not actually
Dru Johnson (02:22)
Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (02:25)
quite what the text says because the text in Greek or in Hebrew and Aramaic says such and such and that’s quite different from what you have in your English Bibles. I have a really hard good.
Dru Johnson (02:37)
I love where you’re going with this already. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but this is I’ve
had this conversation so many times, so please keep going.
Jost Zetzsche (02:45)
Good. I I think it’s I I think that’s a really problematic idea to have as a pastor. It’s great to know Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic or possibly other languages that the Bible comes from. But to essentially disable your congregation by saying only I have the key to scripture and only I
Dru Johnson (03:07)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (03:07)
can explain what it really means, that’s problematic.
Because the Bible was written to be translated. And if it was written to be translated, then the translations need to be meaningful. Otherwise,
Dru Johnson (03:21)
Okay.
Jost Zetzsche (03:22)
the Bible is nonsense. Otherwise, the Bible loses its meaning if it’s not if it can’t be translated. And that’s one of the problems, if you will, or one of the issues that when I first thought of this tool and then introduced it to United Bible Societies, and they then started supporting.
it that was one of the things I wanted to well question and solve at the same time by giving a tool that is equally accessible to pastors and parishioners and to anyone really it’s you know completely free access and that highlights the importance and the power of translation that stands next to the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic text a
globally translated Bible that in many ways explores and and and and and enriches the text maybe even more than Greek or Hebrew Aramaic can ever do. That’s kind of the idea that I had with this tool and that’s the problem that I try to solve. Now that’s all many many years ago, like something like twelve years ago or so, eleven years ago. And now that I’ve been working
on this tool for a number of years, it’s become
much richer than that I think. But the that concept still stands. that we’re trying to show our users that there is a truly global church with many different kind of voices that are all unique. And when I say unique I truly mean the meaning of unique being one you know only one can say it quite like that. Only such and such language can say
that can express that certain verse or that certain concept or that certain grammatical construct quite like that and therefore has rich meaning to us even though we might not understand the language, you know, to start with.
Dru Johnson (05:32)
Well the correct me if I’m wrong, but if I hear what you’re saying, the classic example of this in linguistics is like Brazilian saudagie, which we we always say we don’t have a word for that in English. And what does it mean? Well it means like the tension you feel when you’re a away from somebody that you love and the longing you have to be back together. That’s all of that, one word. so it’s a but it’s not really w even just a word, it’s a whole concept picture.
Jost Zetzsche (06:00)
It’s a concept,
exactly. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (06:01)
Yeah.
is that is that what you mean with the with the uniqueness of various languages to express? Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (06:05)
Yes, yes. So every
you know, but language is not real. I mean language is different from the reality around us. Language tries to describe the reality around us. Every
language speaking group has a different reality around them. They live in a different environment, they have different social customs. They have, you know, and everything about their culture is different from the next language speaking group over over there. And therefore their language had to be developed uniquely to express their realities. And if we believe that Christianity is a message for the world, which we of course believe as Christians, then it needs to
Interesting for us how the message of Christianity, the message of the Bible, is expressed by those uniquely capable languages. And if I might might add one thing to it, if the Bible indeed was there to be translated, then every language has the ability to translate it.
Dru Johnson (07:12)
Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (07:12)
Or translators in every language have the ability to translate the Bible completely. And
Dru Johnson (07:19)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (07:20)
and and and in
all its meaning. And that I think is a really powerful thought. That you know it’s a powerful thought that that gives a boost to our English translations and you know and sort of weakens the argument of the pastor who’s saying only I have the the true understanding of this passage but it also gives a boost to
translations into languages that you and I didn’t actually know existed before we looked them up. You know, languages that are spoken by a couple of hundred, couple of thousand people maybe, somewhere that well we hardly knew their geographical, you know, location
Dru Johnson (07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (08:00)
existed.
Dru Johnson (08:02)
It I wanna come back to that made to be translated statement. but the first I wanna ask about the issue of the uniqueness of a language that re reflects reality. I know some people are gonna hear that language and it’s gonna sound like just relativism to them, like nothing’s real, everything’s invented, your reality is invented. But I d I don’t think you mean it that way. And and the research suggests
Jost Zetzsche (08:23)
No no no no. No no no. I mean I I
Dru Johnson (08:26)
that so I’m sorry, go ahead.
Jost Zetzsche (08:28)
You please go ahead.
Dru Johnson (08:29)
Well, I I just for a book I’d worked on in the past, I had gone into a little bit of like geography and topography and language. And so there’s a strong connection between how many mountains, how wide the rivers are, how flat the area is, with the actual number of vowels, consonants, ejectives, the way the language is spoken itself reflects the the the land in which the shaped the language.
Jost Zetzsche (08:53)
I I I’m compl d I completely I mean you know, it’s it’s th this is a fact, it’s not no opinion you you
Dru Johnson (08:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (09:00)
have or that I have. Of course that’s true. Language is affected by i impacted by well
By everything because that is the primary way of how we communicate, right? Language is the and langu I love language. I mean if I I don’t want to question the the the power of language. I completely believe in the power of language and it’s it’s very real in that sense, but it’s not identical with the reality around us. It reflects the reality around
Dru Johnson (09:29)
Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (09:30)
us, right? Yeah.
Dru Johnson (09:31)
Yeah, that’s a great distinction to me. And I think for Americans who I primarily work with, but Brits a bit too, that’s a hard like it sounds easy to say, it reflects reality, it’s not identical to, but that’s kinda hard to get your mind around. It takes a bit of think I think eventually reality will help you understand that once you’re old enough. It’ll slap you around to help you understand that your your language and your thoughts aren’t identical to reality.
There is also I think of Lyra Dir Borditsky’s work on that people who are bilingual or trilingual from birth, they were raised in multilingual cultures
When asked to do logic puzzles or to rationalize something, depending on which language they’re in, they will use different paths of rationality or different paths of explanation.
Jost Zetzsche (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (10:22)
So we know language is going way deeper than just merely moving one idea over into another idea through these specific words.
Jost Zetzsche (10:30)
Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (10:32)
but now I want to come back to because this has a a very deep impact in the in the biblical translation.
you say it’s made to be translated. Do you mean that the Bible the biblical authors were writing something that was made to be translated in the if I can give a com like the opposite example, in a way that the Quran is not made to be translated?
Jost Zetzsche (10:53)
You know, I I I would kind of chicken out to answer that question because I’m not a I’m not a Quran scholar and I don’t want
Dru Johnson (11:02)
Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (11:03)
to, you know, say something that might be offensive to to some. But but I think I I I think what we can say is that that most followers of Islam would
would subscribe to that, would say, you know, the the Quran cannot be translated, is an interpretation of the Quran, if it’s in another language not, it it can cannot be a translation. So if from from our Christian perspective it certainly seems like it. But but I think that I would not want to speculate more about what
Muslims think about translatability except from you know those sort of superficial statements. But the Bible, if you think about what you know, the the the message of the Bible or the one of the core messages of the Bible is that God became flesh. Right? I mean so in in in John one it talks about that that God became, you know, b be became a human being and that’s an act of translation. I
Dru Johnson (12:02)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (12:02)
mean that that’s an act of translation
that I think underpins everything in the Christian message. If we wouldn’t have had that act of translation, well we wouldn’t we we wouldn’t have Christianity. And if if if that is to
be taken as such a fundamental truth in Christianity, then the the jump to saying, well if that’s true, then he also he wasn’t just born for, you know, some Aramaic speaking Jews in in in in Palestine or in Israel. He was born for for all humanity excuse me. And and if that’s true then it must be translatable and it must be communicable.
in a way that is, yes, unique to any language that it’s that’s translated into, but still maintain the biblical truth, right?
Dru Johnson (13:01)
okay, so I’m I’m just running with what you’re saying, and stop me if I’m over playing your hand. then by that logic, Jesus himself is translatable because we have a four-gospel tradition that takes four perspectives on Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascension.
And so in in the Christian tradition, I think following the Hebrew tradition, holds that all four of those perspectives, those translations of his life, are more true than any one of them alone, right? That the the grander truth about
Jesus is to be found across them.
Jost Zetzsche (13:38)
I think that I’ve I’ve never thought that through like that, but I think that’s a beautiful a a beautiful illustration. One thing that we also and to maybe add to that, one thing that we have fairly recently started in this tool, Translation Insights and Perspectives that we’re talking about, is that we don’t only collect textual translation, but we collect translations into other media as well. So
Dru Johnson (14:06)
Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (14:08)
So we have a lot of you know a lot of artwork and and we have many many depictions of Jesus as a Korean or as a as an African black Jesus or as a Chinese Jesus or as a an aboriginal Jesus and
Those also are true representations of Jesus, I think. You know, was Jesus truly black? Well, he wasn’t truly black. I mean we knew he w well he was a you know which part of the world he grew up in, and we can make assumptions from you know what he looked like, which are very different from the assumptions that the the Western church has long had with a blue eyed and and white white skinned Jesus. But
still the Jesus that that is being embodied in an African you know church of course looks different than the Jesus
Dru Johnson (15:08)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (15:09)
that who is embodied in a you know in a in a church in in the Amazon or in a church in Reedsport, Oregon where I live.
Dru Johnson (15:18)
Hm. Yeah, that’s there’s a in Nazareth and there’s a Catholic church over supposedly over the site of the the Annunciation
And they request I don’t know if you’ve been there before, but they requested the depiction of the Mary and and the child Jesus from different countries and said, have artists create these so and they have all these displays there. I cause I used to when I was a pastor, I did the typical pastor thing and I made fun of, you know, Jesus isn’t blonde haired, blue eyed like we depict him. And then I started teaching in Kenya and I realized, they have a Kenyan Jesus over here. And in Somal or not Somalia, in Ethiopia they have an
Ethiopian Jesus. And in Nigeria, they have a Nigerian Jesus. And
Jost Zetzsche (16:08)
That’s right.
Dru Johnson (16:09)
and even in Kenya, they’ll have tribal, you know, Jesus, Jesus depicted in various tribal outfits. And I thought, okay, there’s actually something, the translatability of Jesus, that almost as if if he had come to Kenya, he would have been, you know,
Jost Zetzsche (16:24)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (16:24)
a Luo if he amongst the Luo’s or the Koreans amongst the Koreans. and so yeah, I I love showing those pictures to my students of all the different
different depictions of Jesus. And of course he is blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and a few like the Lithuanian ones, but in the Korean ones he’s Korean and Japanese ones he’s Japanese.
So d do you mean something like that is going on when the Bible is translated into these various languages? Is that like a visual analogy or is there something else going on when we’re translating the the text of scripture into these various languages of media? I noticed on the app, which we’ll talk about in a second second more fully, you also have even sign language on there. So you have vi visual language media as well.
Jost Zetzsche (17:07)
Right.
Let me answer the f second question first and then the first.
Dru Johnson (17:15)
Okay.
Jost Zetzsche (17:15)
so sign language, we we do have a lot of sign language, which also is a fairly late discovery that we had. About four or five years ago I realized that that you know there’s four hundred some sign languages, official sign languages in the world, and there has been a real push to translate the Bible into these different sign languages. And there’s actually only one sign language, American sign language.
Which has a complete Bible. Every
Dru Johnson (17:44)
Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (17:45)
other sign language that is is working to have a translation is not quite there yet. But I recently wrote an article for Christianity Today with together with a sign language interpreter. I can send you the link, maybe you can put it in the show notes, about the deep meaning of sign language.
Clearly for deaf sign language users, but also for hearing folks like us. Because what sign language can do is unlock a level of meaning in the in in in especially the gospels, but also in you know other places of the Bible that we don’t get to
very easily otherwise because there’s an emotional and emotive n nature of sign language translations can be, I should say, that is just breathtaking and and and shows us something that that we you know that we hardly can scratch with language, at least the language in in the Bible. So an example when Jesus talks to the to the Phoenician woman about
Dru Johnson (19:05)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (19:06)
You know, about who tries to convince him to heal her daughter.
Dru Johnson (19:10)
Right.
Jost Zetzsche (19:12)
That’s a passage I think that I’m I imagine you would agree is kind of difficult to understand because Jesus is not particularly kind, it looks like.
Dru Johnson (19:21)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (19:35)
There is that strange quote about the you know crumbs falling off the table and you know and that that she gives as an example, yeah, but the dogs underneath the table can at least eat the crumbs. Now if you look at that, if you watch that passage in have it a Mexican Sign Language especially
You see an emotional, compassionate, and loving Jesus who talks to that woman who truly deeply admires her for essentially challenging him and and winning the argument. That
Dru Johnson (20:13)
Wow.
Jost Zetzsche (20:13)
we don’t see in the text. I mean, we can interpret it into the text, but we don’t see it. It’s not in the text. But but the the Mexican Sign Language Translation Team that it worked on that and eventually then.
know, put out a translation, saw that through translating into their language. So powerful. It’s so meaningful and so powerful. Or there is that another example of of Russian Sign Language translation of Mark II or three, I forget, with when when the you know when the friends l put the the the the lower into
Dru Johnson (20:50)
Right, lower the man, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (20:52)
the through the roof.
Where you know, we read that passage and we can only read the words that are in there, which are powerful words of course, but we we don’t realize, for instance, that Jesus as they scratch open the roof and and let the let the man on his on his on his bed or his whatever his his what’s the word, his
Dru Johnson (21:15)
It’s Matt.
Yeah, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (21:16)
His mat down
that Jesus, of course, sees it as that happens, right? And he looks up and he he sees that that person come down and he is feeling, he is feeling so deeply. And that is expressed in in the language of the in that case Russian signer. Just very powerful. So so those are good examples of languages that we don’t really see very much sign languages. We might see, you know, American Sign Language.
Sometimes, you know, as a sign language interpreter is is interpreting a speech of some kind, whatever, but we don’t have that we don’t have those categorized as fully capable and fully expressive languages. Turns out, in many ways, they might be more expressive than the language that you and I speak right now, right? Really, really
powerful stuff that challenges so much in our own understanding of language,
Dru Johnson (22:17)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (22:18)
of translation and and you know, eventually of the content of the Bible and and maybe of who Jesus is, you know. So that’s that’s powerful stuff.
Dru Johnson (22:29)
that
is a really vivid image that I have a rabbit trail that I want to go down just really quickly because I’m quite sure that at least one or two people when they heard you say Mexican Sign Language probably thought, dear, he meant to say Spanish Sign Language and said Mexican instead. So maybe
Jost Zetzsche (22:46)
Mm. No, no, no, no.
Dru Johnson (22:48)
just quickly mention why do we call it American Sign Language versus Mexican Sign Language versus Brazilian Sign Language or something else.
Jost Zetzsche (22:56)
Right.
So
So you know, sign languages are natural languages, languages that that that develop in communities, in local communities. there are there are relationships between languages. So for instance, ASL, American Sign Language is a very influential language that has an impact on many other sign languages, but that doesn’t mean that American Sign Language is used by by you know by by anyone except people who use American Sign Language.
might be impacted by it. But so since it’s an since these are natural languages, it’s not that just because people in Mexico speak Spanish they would take Spanish Sign Language. That’s just not how it how it works. It’s a a natural language that developed in Mexico by you know deaf people who who developed this language. And and and so there is a Colombian Sign Language and there is a Venezuelan Sign Language.
And
often in fact there is a number of sign languages per country that sometimes are being harmonized but sometimes are being left as two different languages.
Dru Johnson (24:09)
wow.
I’m just trying to think what Dominican Sign Language would look like. Very rapid and choppy, that would be my guess. But again, I’m I’m thinking from the verbal language to the to the sign language,
Jost Zetzsche (24:15)
I think I th probably I think I do have one Dominican. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (24:23)
which might have no real connection. fascinating stuff. Yes, I remember when a friend of mine who was raised in it with deaf parents was trying to explain to me American Sign Language is not English translated into signs. I was like
Jost Zetzsche (24:35)
No no no no
Dru Johnson (24:37)
it took me it took me a while
Jost Zetzsche (24:36)
no. No no no. No no.
Dru Johnson (24:39)
to make that break in my mind. It’s a very difficult one to realize.
Jost Zetzsche (24:42)
He he here’s
another thing that that I think you and your audience might like. what sign languages tend to do is they tend to give meaningful names to people. and they do it to a to differing degrees. The the sign language is the sign language that gives that that has you know, that puts it on itself to give a meaningful name to everyone in the Bible is Brazilian sign language, Libras. They they
Dru Johnson (25:11)
Course.
Jost Zetzsche (25:12)
they are going
Like all all on they’re all on board for making up all these names. But but most sign languages.
tend to limit these meaningful names to main characters in the Bible, right?
Dru Johnson (25:25)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (25:25)
So obviously Jesus, you know, is the one that we’ve all seen, and and that is
Dru Johnson (25:30)
Okay.
Jost Zetzsche (25:31)
actually one of the few and maybe the only biblical name that is always the same across languages. All languages that I’m familiar with do the the nail the nails through the through the hand. Yeah. Right. There
Dru Johnson (25:38)
The the touching your the sorry. The finger to the finger to the hand representing the nails, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (25:45)
are some I believe that don’t do the middle finger, they do use the the pointer instead because
Because
it might be, you know, it’s a middle finger and might not be
Dru Johnson (25:53)
Right. Right.
Jost Zetzsche (25:54)
might not be okay for Jesus. But but what
Sign language communities tend to do is they they tend to look at what is really important about a person in the Bible and give him that kind of name. So for instance, for John the Baptist, well, what’s really important for John the Baptist is the baptism, and often you can see it for instance, in Mexican Sign Language is like you know him baptizing somebody. Well, the Catholics don’t like that very much, right? Because the Catholics do not baptize like that. So in the in the German Catholic Sign Language.
Translation is like this, you know, him having the water on the head. Now, in American
Dru Johnson (26:32)
interesting.
Jost Zetzsche (26:33)
Sign Language, they didn’t feel it it was the most important aspect of of of John that he is a baptizer, but he’s the announcer, so he announces in in American Sign Language, and that’s how you translate John in American Sign Language. In Vietnamese Sign Language, he is like this. That’s him. And you know what that is? That is him
Dru Johnson (26:54)
Huh. Like a running man.
Jost Zetzsche (26:57)
that’s him jumping.
Dru Johnson (27:01)
yeah. The Holy Spirit filled him, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (27:03)
Holy Spirit
filled them there, right? So what I find so beautiful about that is that so what we do in our tool, every time you come to a verse that mentions the name of John the Baptist, we show all of these different translations of how these different sign language communities translate John and thereby communicate what is really important to them when they associate what what attribute
of John is the most important for them to to be associated with John. And that helps us in turn as non-signers, or maybe maybe we know one sign language but likely not more than one.
to be reminded of a much more complete John. You know, John, the name John of course has a meaning also, but but not a meaning that is really important to us. To us he’s just John, right?
Dru Johnson (28:01)
Mm. Right.
Jost Zetzsche (28:03)
But to the sign language communities, there is more to be seen in the person and that’s what they express through these different translations. And if we can then send see a number of different translations, we have a much richer
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (28:22)
Yes. So that’s very helpful. a c a really good example too. I mean, I’m just thinking and I would have never thought before this conversation, knowing six, seven different types of sign language for a particular term would open up so much theologically. Like, what is John? Like what or is there one thing or he is
Jost Zetzsche (28:38)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Dru Johnson (28:41)
he the seven different things and and different
Jost Zetzsche (28:43)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (28:43)
communities are appreciating those different aspects?
And you have this tool that we’ve been referring to called Tips or Translation Insights and Perspectives. So this just if you want to go there on your own, because some people will just be listening to this, most people will be just listening. It’s tips dot translation dot bible, tips.translation dot bible. Tips like you give a waiter or a waitress. and so
How are people meant to use this? There’s it it presents a lot of information. So how how are you imagining people are going to use this resource?
Jost Zetzsche (29:22)
what we
would incur what we encourage people to do is look th there’s a a great number of ways to get to data in the tool. But we would like to sort of funnel people through the verse lookup way of getting to
Dru Johnson (29:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (29:39)
data. So we encourage people to say you are you know in your morning devotion or in your preparation for a sermon or in your just because you’re interested in a certain verse, you can enter the verse in a variety of ways.
Know
we we covered all the different abbreviations, etc., in that verse lookup that we have on every page, and then you hit enter, and then you see that verse first in the original language, so be Greek or you know whatever the language might be, followed by an English reference translation. And that’s just a reference translation. It doesn’t really
Dru Johnson (30:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (30:15)
even matter what translation that is, it’s just a way for us to then be able to talk about what we have found in other languages.
how they translate the concepts, the words, the the the the the the grammatical features and sometimes the whole verse in fact into their languages and since we of course are aware that neither we nor nor anyone else can read all these languages we we translate that back into English if you will so we say for instance if you go to
It’s Mark 11 25 where Jesus talks about having a grudge against someone. If you go to that verse, you will find the very first story listed as from a from a Nepalese language where it says if you they translate the concept of holding a grudge against someone by saying having someone strung up in your heart, which makes
Dru Johnson (31:18)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (31:18)
so much sense, right? I mean we don’t really know why they say that. We we don’t have all that information.
But we do know what we can understand. We read that and we go like, yes, that is exactly what’s happening. If I’m holding a grudge, my heart doesn’t beat as freely as it should because it’s something is strung, you know, is sung around my heart and it doesn’t perform as it should. And and so that’s just a you know one of we have about 80,000 different entries in there. So it’s it’s a really truly large tool. And many entries are like a
I
said those smallish kinds of example, like you know, this language in Nepal or in Papua New Guinea or in Australia or in Brazil translated such and such. But then there’s also for every verse in the old, in the Protestant Old and New Testament, there are back translations of the whole verse, and those are those are translations into that language back translations.
Translated into English to make us understand what those verses actually say in that language. And these are really revealing and give us
rich and deep perspective into how these language communities understood that verse and put it into the language. And often I think that’s important to understand, often it’s not so much a choice, but a necessity to translate it in such a way because of the con of the of the abilities and disabilities of any language. Here’s an example for instance,
Dru Johnson (33:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (33:00)
right? So one really important thing about
how languages do pronouns. Pronouns are like he she it, you know, are you he she it we are they and and many languages use something called clusivity.
Inclusivity is a feature that is used by hundreds and hundreds of languages that differentiates between when I say to you, we are going to the football game tonight or whatever, and I have someone stand right next to me, I need to differentiate whether I just mean myself and that person right next to you, to me, or whether I mean you included, right?
Dru Johnson (33:51)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (33:52)
That doesn’t sound like a big deal, but
Imagine Peter saying to Jesus during the Transfiguration, Lord, it is good for us to be here
Dru Johnson (34:00)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (34:01)
in English or in Greek, or it would also be in Hebrew or Aramaic. We have no idea what Peter is actually saying, whether he includes Jesus in that or not. Now, languages that have to make a decision, it’s not a choice for them. They have to choose a word, right? So they they cannot just go, whatever, I’m just doing whatever they can’t do or whatever. They have to study the text really hard.
To truly understand what Peter might be inferring there, whether he is talking to Jesus and is including Jesus, or whether he just means himself James and John. And sounds like a little thing, but it’s really not, because it it questions the original Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or Latin or biblical text and finds out things that you know are not immediately in the text but
They have to be somehow understood from the context. And that’s really interesting and really enriching for us because it
You know, you I bet you have I’m I’m sure you preached about that text, right? But you’ve never asked that question actually. unlikely, right? Because
Dru Johnson (35:09)
Yeah. Never in my life. Yeah, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (35:13)
your language your language makes you not think of that. Your language doesn’t differentiate. If you would have grown up in any of the hundreds of languages that that makes you think about that, you would have thought of that. But now we can look at
even though we are not ha don’t have to deal with that grammatical construct, we can look at how they do it and understand the text just a little bit more richly ourselves.
Dru Johnson (35:40)
Yeah, that’s a great example. And I think the the one time this does come up, quite often, it used to be in academic circles, and I’ve seen it trickle down to pastors as well, is the you y’all distinction. Right? that
Jost Zetzsche (35:57)
Totally.
Dru Johnson (35:57)
yeah, that you in English we just flatten it all out to you, but it’s often y’all or you all or yens or
Jost Zetzsche (36:03)
Exactly.
Dru Johnson (36:05)
whatever whatever you say in your dialect of English.
Jost Zetzsche (36:08)
Exactly. And that is of course one of the arguments that some of King James version proponents still
Dru Johnson (36:13)
Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (36:14)
have that that there it was differentiated. Unfortunately there it was differentiated sometimes not correctly, but but does you know, I’m I’m not we’re not in a King James conversation here. That did make that differentiation.
Dru Johnson (36:21)
Hmm. Right. But they were using the old English that did make that distinction. Yeah. Yeah,
Jost Zetzsche (36:27)
That’s right. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (36:28)
and I see here on this, I looked up the passage on on tips.translation.com
and I see it has an entry
Jost Zetzsche (36:34)
Dot Bible.
Dru Johnson (36:35)
here. sorry, dot Bible. Thank you. That that makes more sense. I always forget those endings.
Jost Zetzsche (36:38)
Ha ha ha.
Dru Johnson (36:42)
tips.translation dot bible. And I’m looking, there’s an entry under that passage in eleven thirty-five, you said.
where for forgiveness, right, which this is a hot topic, even today for family relations issues, forgiveness. And so I see all these entries, Navajo is to give back
I don’t know a lot of these languages. so tall
Jost Zetzsche (37:07)
And that’s so amazing. You look at it and
Dru Johnson (37:09)
is to lose another’s sin out of one’s heart. Burmese to be released or freed from. Quechua to level off. Zapotec is cast away. So you have these are you know, in many ways you’re actually
When you work through these language issues, what you’re realizing that, English is one of these languages as well. And even saying I go through this whole rigor in in class about having sex, I’m like, that’s a weird thing to say. Like I have a coffee cup in my hand. How do you have sex, right? How do you hold
Jost Zetzsche (37:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (37:45)
a grudge? We’ve chose for whatever reason, the history of our language, holding became the metaphor that conceptualized this idea for us.
But again, most people never think about that a day in their life until they encounter the other language, the other translation. Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (38:01)
That’s right. That’s right.
And I think it’s really important to re to realise that I clearly am not or what our tool is not
Communicating is that English is less able. That’s clearly not the case, right? English is equally able than any other language. That’s a really important thing to take away. Because I don’t want to. I mean, English is such a blessed language. We have 900 different translations of the Bible or or parts of the Bible. 900 different. I’m
Dru Johnson (38:35)
Mm. Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (38:36)
not talking I’m not saying editions, I’m saying different translations, right? No other language comes close. So we’re
Really rich as as far as that goes. Because we can look at all these different well, not all of them, but we can look easy look at 50 different translations and you know online tools or if we we go to Amazon and buy books or w wherever you buy books. but despite the huge wealth of English, there is of course a lot more to be had when you look at other languages. And I’m so glad you you bring up that that that example of forgiveness.
Because the truth is forgiveness is really hard to understand, right? Really hard to understand.
Dru Johnson (39:16)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (39:18)
I’m particularly bad about forgiving, and so for me, this is a really personal topic. And to be able to, you know, read through the translations that you just read or the many others that are there is really
can be really empowering and can be even freeing in the sense when you see, for instance, that many, many of those translations, including the ones that you read, don’t talk about forgiveness about the other person. It talks about forgiveness as my thing, as my
Dru Johnson (39:50)
Right.
Jost Zetzsche (39:51)
thing that I have to set right, right? No matter what whether I was wronged or not. And and so you know in a sense it could you could almost say it’s like a it has a
It can have a healing impact to see how other languages
find ways to express such crucial concepts as as forgiveness. And by the way, you you did say that you know all these languages if you’ve never seen before, if you click on one of those languages, you can see that every time a language is being mentioned for the first time this underlined the link. And if you click on them you come to a page then where you see a whole lot of information about that language, including a where on the there’s a map, where on the world is located, there’s a link to Wikipedia where you can
find more information about the language and and I like that particularly much there’s a link also to if there is an online bible of that language a link to that which we don’t
put there because we think people will understand the Bible, but we put it there to s to see to show that people to show our users that this is for real. This is not made up stuff. This is
Dru Johnson (41:05)
Right. Yes.
Jost Zetzsche (41:06)
not, you know, stuff that we pulled out of our own hat. It it there is in fact a Bible translation that sometimes looks wildly different because they might use a very different script or different whatever. and and and so you can
you can get information about things like, you know, whatever that small language might be.
Dru Johnson (41:29)
Yeah, i this feels parallel to me too. I I love teaching introduction to church history. I can only do like an undergraduate version, that’s not my specialty, but I can do an introduction to church history.
And I found that the students I have that are very dogmatic that are like my tradition is absolutely correct and all these other ones are wrong, that really cures you of this, because you realize Christians have thought lots of things about things over history. They’ve always come back to the same things, but they’ve always struggled to how they interpret the their scriptures, the practices, the rituals, the life,
Jost Zetzsche (42:01)
Absolutely.
Dru Johnson (42:02)
the life of the church. And and in a way, I I think there’s a parallel problem, and it may be uniquely English speaking, I don’t know.
that people are always looking for the right interpretation of a passage, as if there’s one single way to do it. And you’re looking at this and you’re going, okay, that that doesn’t even make s that’s a silly question to look for the singular correct
Jost Zetzsche (42:23)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (42:24)
interpretation of a passage now that I’m realizing all the ways the church around the world is working on this.
Jost Zetzsche (42:31)
Right.
I mean, you know, y it’s a it’s a it’s a tricky path to go down that road, of course, because, you know, yes, there is truth. So so w it w That’s exactly right.
Dru Johnson (42:40)
Right. Yeah. It’s not anything goes. the I mean, this is what I always say.
It’s not relativism. They’re all struggling with the text. They’re all going back to the data and I forgive
Jost Zetzsche (42:50)
That’s exactly right. Yep. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (42:52)
me for saying scripture’s data, but they’re going back to the the text and trying to figure it out. So nobody’s freewheeling
Jost Zetzsche (42:57)
Yeah. Yes.
Dru Johnson (42:59)
it here. They’re making hard decisions, as she said.
Jost Zetzsche (43:01)
Exactly, exactly. And one thing that I am particularly proud of also is so again this is a project by United Bible Societies and by the nature of United Bible Societies, it’s an interconfessional project. So not only can you find the, you know, Protestant and Catholic books of the Bible and their you know, many of the Catholic books as you are
Readers or as your as your listeners of course know, you know, there’s a number of Old Testament books that are different in the Catholic Bible. When it comes to the Orthodox Church, which also is covered under this interconfessional concept, there are a whole bunch more Old Testament books that that go into it. And then the crazy thing is there is this Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Dru Johnson (43:52)
Right. Which is wide open,
everybody come, we’ll Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (43:56)
Kind of, right? But they so
they don’t have a super I mean the idea of canon is a little difficult or different for them, but they do
Dru Johnson (44:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (44:05)
have sort of a an they have a narrow canon and a wider canon. And the narrow canon we decided to
cover, which means that we have books like Enoch or Jubilees or Ethiopian Maccabees, which is really different from the the Catholic and and Eastern Orthodox Maccabees in there, which makes me just so happy that we have become a tool that represents the complete global
Lower case Orthodox Church. You know, all the major confessions and their scriptures are being represented in our tool. There’s two books missing because we are still translating them into English actually for this particular tool. But everything else is available. And and then what that means is that
You know, we we talked about Greek and Latin Greek and and and Hebrew and Aramaic. Some of these books are not in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic. you know, Second Estras, which is used by the Catholic Church, is
Dru Johnson (45:17)
yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (45:17)
in Latin, right? So there is Latin source text suddenly. And all these Ethiopian texts are in old Ethiopian or G.S.
Dru Johnson (45:25)
Right. Get those, yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (45:27)
so you suddenly have l source languages thrown into the mix that don’t only just look different because I use different
But are really different. I mean, G.S. in a way, it’s a it’s a Semitic Semitic language, so it has many similarities with Hebrew, not the way it looks, but the way it actually you know is. But but that really fascinates me also that you know to shake up the idea of you know I’m I’m not I’m not questioning the the the the
rightness of the Protestant canon being sixty six books. I I’m not trying to change that at all. But what we are communicating in our tool, I think kind of naturally, is that the global church
has a whole bunch more books. And if you are interested in those, you don’t have to go there. But if you’re interested in what these books say, you can look at them in translations that are academic. So not you there’s a bunch of horrible translations of some of these books out there.
I mean non academic and very slanted sort of. and but the translations that we have are good translations and and you know reflect that the Ethiopian Church for instance and the are is part of our global church, you know, and and our Christian brothers and sisters.
Dru Johnson (47:05)
I want to finally return to the pastor we talked about at the very beginning, who is saying,
Jost Zetzsche (47:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (47:11)
actually in the Hebrew or the Greek, this means that, maybe just push you a little bit more to describe why that is so problematic. I mean, obviously sometimes you you need to do that, right? To just explain something, but why I can
Jost Zetzsche (47:25)
Yes. Thank we.
Dru Johnson (47:27)
go from helpful to problematic for you.
Jost Zetzsche (47:32)
So here here I think is an example where I think it’s it’s a really good thing to do that. So if you look at John 1.1 where it says in the beginning was the word and and the the term used for word in the Greek, as you know, is logos, and logos is not on a one-to-one doesn’t have a one-to-one relationship with word. word is many one of the many ways that logos can be interpreted, but there are many others also.
In a case like that, where I think English and so many other languages who are all translating something like word, in a case like that I think it’s it’s a good thing for a pastor to say, look, in the Greek,
Dru Johnson (48:21)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (48:21)
there’s actually a word being used that is a lot richer than word, because XYZ, right?
That’s a good use, I think, of a of a situation like that where where I I can actually help my church to understand something more richly because of of my ability to lose dictionaries well or my ability to to to to understand Greek better. but
I you know I’m sixty something, sixty-two, three, and and been to church for many years and and heard hundreds of times, probably thousands of times, where pastors said you know, the whatever, the Greek word for power is you know, has
Dru Johnson (49:16)
And to Namas. Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (49:18)
Dynamis has means this and this and this and this. And it’s just I think very often pastors
I just kind of want to differentiate. Wanna wanna you it’s an easy thing to say because it just means that you have to look up in a dictionary and you find five different meanings and you go like, whoa, this is more than power, so I’m just gonna say
Dru Johnson (49:43)
Mm.
Jost Zetzsche (49:43)
it to impress my and you know, but whether it’s a conscious or subconscious decision that’s you know
Dru Johnson (49:50)
Right.
Jost Zetzsche (49:50)
whatever. It doesn’t doesn’t really matter. But I think doesn’t it
behoove a pastor much more to say, let’s talk about forgiveness today. I looked at forty-five other languages that also need to translate forgiveness. Here are some things that people today are saying in in Peru you know, s a group in Peru says that, a group in Nigeria says this and that, and this Russian minority has yet another way of
Does that help us to understand forgiveness more? Because it’s the actual church in those places that is using that. It’s not a theoretical thing that they say, you know, whatever about forgiveness.
Dru Johnson (50:39)
Right. Right.
Jost Zetzsche (50:41)
It’s the real thing. That is what that church there understands forgiveness to be. And and and that I think has the potential to be a really powerful communicative tool for the pastor, and one where he can also develop.
Differentiate himself or herself, but he can also tell his church or her church that the church can look it up themselves at Tipson Citation of the Bible if they if they need to. What we’ve done, and that is the other thing that I’m I’m glad we have time to talk about real quick. What we’ve started about three months ago is that we not every not every church is using the dictionary, but the majority of churches, especially my mainline churches, are using the revised common lectionary.
for their sermons as a text for their sermons. So what we’ve done is we are publishing lectionary illustrations every Monday for the coming Sunday that just
Dru Johnson (51:42)
nice.
Jost Zetzsche (51:43)
that just list
examples from the data that we have already with a link to that data then that say you know for instance we’re talking about passover next Sunday you know that’s the the passage in in Exodus 12 that there’s gonna be in the lectionary and and and our little lectionary sheet cheat sheet says did you know that pat the the word that Tyndale came up for Passover is so clever
Because it’s like Pasha in English in
Dru Johnson (52:16)
Right? Yeah.
Jost Zetzsche (52:18)
Latin and Hebrew, and yet it’s meaningful because it’s passing over the door that that you know. And and I’m particularly proud of things like that because that’s something that English does uniquely well there. There’s no other language
Dru Johnson (52:32)
Hmm.
Jost Zetzsche (52:32)
that has passed over quite so well. there’s also other translations of Passover that are also interesting, but
English happens to have a really clever translation there. That and since we can it’s always good to me mention Tyndale on his you know, on this year when when it’s this
500th anniversary for this New Testament translation. But so so we’ve done that and we hope that pastors will who use the revised common lectionary as preach along those lines, that they use that lectionary and or the lection the the the the aids that that lectionary gives just as a way to have some illustrations that we think are really interesting.
Dru Johnson (53:20)
Well, I can already hear the sound of pastors tapping their way to the website tips.translation.bible, to find all this rich resource that they can use in their preaching and their teaching and to help their in their own understanding and learning of scripture as well, that they can help the church see. Yost, I did not ask you how you pronounce your last name, Zetcha Zetcha?
Jost Zetzsche (53:43)
very close. It’s Setcha. Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (53:45)
Secha, okay. So Yost
Secha, I have immensely enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for your wisdom.
Jost Zetzsche (53:50)
Me too.
That was that was so great. Thank you so much for having me, Dru
