Dru Johnson (00:00)
When God says, Let us make humankind, who is he talking to? Was it a bunch of cosmic beings called the gods or Elohim? Well, this week we’re going to be talking to Mike Chu, who is a scholar that belongs to Awakening School of Ministry. That is the ministry that Dr. Michael Heiser started. You might have heard of Mike Heiser. his book, The Unseen Realm, and his book Angels and his other book, Demons,
We talk about the realities that cannot be seen but can be felt in the realities of the world that we might call the spiritual world, and how Mike Heiser spelled it out from the Old Testament and ancient Near Eastern context, and then what it has to do with our lives today and what it has to do with the end of time. Will we be one of those cosmic beings surrounding God at the end of time?
but also just to hear about Mike Heiser himself. he passed away in 2023 at a young age. And so we get to hear about him as a Christian man and mentor of other people. If you like what we do here at the Biblical Mind, you can like and subscribe to this if you’re watching the YouTube channel or you can give us a a follow and a rating on
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Mike Chu (01:22)
So Dr. Heiser was a Semitic scholar. he had graduated from, I think it was the University of Wisconsin, Madison,
Dru Johnson (01:30)
Yes.
Mike Chu (01:30)
where he got his PhD in Semitic languages. And so, from what I understand, the way that he described his journey, after he completed his PhD dissertation, he was looking around for positions, jobs, teaching places, even churches. But nothing was ultimately coming up. And he
eventually took a job offer at the Logos Bible Software Company. They were looking for a scholar who was actually familiar not just with the evangelical side of interpretation and theology, but also could engage with the critical scholarship as well. And so that was part of how his journey with Logos Bible software started. And he was there for, I think, well over fifteen years.
he contributed a lot to either translation of their basic tools, a lot of their Old Testament Hebrew materials. And throughout that time, he also engaged in like scholarly discussions, peer-reviewed journals. every so often he would present a paper at ETS or SBL. And so that’s who Dr. Heiser was. He was really an evangelical, but who was very well comfortable with both.
Critical and evangelical sides of understanding the old and new testament scriptures.
Dru Johnson (02:55)
Now, some of the people who listen to this may not know what critical scholarship is. So what do you mean
Mike Chu (03:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (03:00)
when you say that?
Mike Chu (03:02)
Well what I mean is that critical scholarship meaning they’re not coming from a particular set of theological affirmations, theological assumptions. they may be agnostic towards the scripture, but they love studying the scripture. They may be atheistic or or some other faith, but not necessarily Christian or evangelical in any sense, but they love studying the old and new testament scriptures.
Dru Johnson (03:29)
Yeah, it’s funny. I I don’t know. Well, I guess I have some ideas why, but with students or parishioners, when I talk about most of my colleagues in biblical studies are not religious people, they’re not Christians or they they like their you can see their mind going, Wait, why would anybody ever want to study
Mike Chu (03:44)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (03:45)
this? and I go, Well, I don’t know. Have you ever known somebody who’s a scholar of Roman history but doesn’t go sacrifice animals to the Roman gods?
Mike Chu (03:53)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (03:54)
it can happen.
Mike Chu (03:55)
Yeah. And I I remember there was even a story that Mike had once told about his initial years at Wisconsin Madison where there would be event eventually a a lot of other evangelical background folks who are getting their PhDs done at that, you know, facility. And the staff would gather them in for a once a year talk where especially for the first years.
Where essentially they told him, Look, we know where you’re from, we know what your convictions are, we know where you graduated from, so we already have an idea about what your background is like, and we really don’t care. We just want you to engage with the material. We want you to do honest scholarship and research. And if we ever get the sense that you try to inject some sort of interpretation that you can’t back up, you’re out. Right? And
Dru Johnson (04:46)
Wow.
Mike Chu (04:46)
and and essentially like that that
was part of what he experienced of how to really train himself in providing good argumentation. Whether the person may agree with the conclusion he came to at the end, but he needs to be able to back it up with solid research.
Dru Johnson (05:03)
Yeah, I well I I mean, that’s that’s a pretty that is a pretty stark line to draw on the sand for a a graduate program. But to wit
Mike Chu (05:13)
Yeah. I mean ’cause
I don’t think that program it wasn’t necessarily Christian. Actually I remember Doctor Hart’s saying that his
Dru Johnson (05:18)
It’s definitely not.
Mike Chu (05:19)
supervisor was was a Jewish supervisor and so
Dru Johnson (05:22)
Yeah, Michael
Michael W. Fox rather than Michael J. Fox, I guess is but or sorry, Michael V Fox, not W. but Michael Michael Fox, yeah, was is these are legends. on good repute
Mike Chu (05:38)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (05:39)
that something like, you know, he would start with five PhD students in the fall and his goal was to get down to one or zero by by Christmas, by basically scaring
Mike Chu (05:50)
My gosh.
Dru Johnson (05:51)
them off.
’cause he only wanted the cream of the crop and the you know, the tough of the tough or whatever. So it that it doesn’t I and again, I it’s an apocryphal story. I think Bill Tooman told me that
Mike Chu (06:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (06:00)
story. and I may have the details wrong. But yeah, but Tim Mackey, Bill Tooman, Michael Lyons at Saint St. Andrews are all out of the school. I think they had some overlap maybe with with Michael Heiser while
Mike Chu (06:16)
I yeah.
Dru Johnson (06:17)
he was there.
Mike Chu (06:17)
I remember at a conference Tim Mackie once shared that he and Mike, like I guess Heiser was well known by all the younger PhD students and Mackey had just begun his first year
Dru Johnson (06:29)
Okay.
Mike Chu (06:30)
and it was it was Heiser’s last year. And so
Dru Johnson (06:32)
Okay.
Mike Chu (06:33)
they overlapped just briefly and I think they kept in touch. That’s why I think, you know, Dr. Heiser worked with the Bible project guys, especially with Tim, later later on in the years to come.
Dru Johnson (06:45)
Yeah, and and I I would imagine that Michael Heiser was one of the people who was outwardly Christian and paved the way as well, right? Because I I I was in a you know, almost entirely atheistic philosophy department, but it was a really good experience for me as far as how I was treated as a Christian. I was a pastor at the time because another Christian had kind of gone through ahead of me and he was an excellent student and he was a really w well respected.
And kind of open open the way for me to come in and not seem like a total freak. Well, you know, freak in my own way. So it wouldn’t
Mike Chu (07:20)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (07:20)
surprise me if Michael Heiser did something like that as well. okay, so that’s where he’s coming out of is this world where they’re doing critical study where they’re saying don’t don’t slip in your Christian ideas. i and you know, this is this is something that goes on in biblical scholarship in general. We would say
y I I once had an ec economist colleague who said, Well, hey Dru you you do all this Bible stuff, so you you get to like present stuff to people who already kinda agree with everything you you think and say. It’s just, you know, tweaking the details. I was like, contraire Maufrere,
Mike Chu (07:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (07:56)
when I give a paper a SBL, who knows who’s in the room and what they believe, but the chances that they’re
Mike Chu (08:02)
yeah.
Dru Johnson (08:02)
a confessing Christian like me are pretty slim. unless it’s a friend of mine coming to see how badly I’m gonna bomb. So
Mike Chu (08:11)
I mean it even happens at ETS. I’ve been at a couple of sessions where s some people got up at the very end of a paper presentation and lambasted the person in front. So I mean it it doesn’t matter Christian or non-Christian. It it’s a it’s a room full of scholars and they’re going to
Dru Johnson (08:27)
Right.
Mike Chu (08:28)
test your theory.
Dru Johnson (08:29)
Yep, exactly. Okay, so he goes to work for Faith Life Logos up in Bellingham, Washington. D do do you know did he move up there to Bellingham? I assume, yeah.
Mike Chu (08:38)
He did,
he did. He and his family lived there for essentially his entire time up in Washington and kind of established their lives and livelihood there for a long time. I I’m trying to remember. It was probably around twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen in that time frame when he was contacted by a a a church pastor down in Florida who was convicted of the reality that he wasn’t really teaching his people.
The Bible. And he was teaching them maybe leadership skills. He was teaching them a lot of maybe pseudo. Well, I’ll I’ll stop myself, but it wasn’t necessarily from the Bible, right? He he came to the conviction that he realized that he he never got formal training. He just simply was a preacher and just started preaching and didn’t necessarily know the scriptures that deeply. And so that was part of his conviction. And he reached out to Dr. Heiser.
To talk with him about how to get better. And eventually that conversation led to this idea of why don’t we start up a school together? If you had the opportunity to create a school where you could teach what you wanted to teach, what would that look like? And so that was part of how that eventually led to Dr. Heiser leaving his position at Faith Life at at Logos Bible Software.
moving him and his whole entire family from Washington all the way to Jacksonville, Florida to be part of this new venture in starting up this online theology school called Awakening.
Dru Johnson (10:15)
Yeah. Which I’m thinking climate wise, culturally, everything those are two opposite ends of the United States.
Mike Chu (10:24)
Yeah, it it it it was an immense change. And I remember h hearing Mike once comment that he he does not mind the weather at all in Florida. after living so many years in during north e northwestern winters, that all of a sudden in the winter season in Florida, it was bright, sunny and in the eighties.
Dru Johnson (10:46)
It is indeed. okay, so he he moves there and begins this this school called Awakening, which is who you work for today. You’re still keeping school w Michael Heiser died at a young age from cancer. w when did he die?
Mike Chu (11:05)
It was February twentieth, twenty twenty-three. he passed away due to complications from pancreatic cancer. And it was I almost a two-year journey, about a year and a half, a little over a year and a half of him fighting it, through chemo treatments and other attempts to try to circumvent and stop the progression of the disease. unfortunately it got to a point where
Around the new year of twenty twenty-three, they discovered that the the cancer had metastasized and had spread further. And so he knew his time was running out. And so one of the last messages that he sent to everyone within all of his different social media networks, essentially it was a call to arms for everyone who were really inspired and helped by his research and by the things that he had discussed and talked about by his books.
And that this in the end is ultimately up to us to carry on really digging into this supernatural worldview, into what is the divine council worldview, how does that have what are the implications for that for interpretation, for how we live our life, for how we preach the gospel, even. And so that was kind of his call at the end. He knew that ultimately his name doesn’t matter. It was ultimately the name of Jesus that needed to be lifted up. And
He had just hoped that he had contributed to that effort.
Dru Johnson (12:35)
Hm. go ahead, sorry.
Mike Chu (12:36)
Yeah, it’s one of the
just one of the fond memories I do have of of of Dr. Heiser was about two years before he passed away, it was he was he was trying to consolidate a lot of his social media stuff and I was part of that team. I was helping out with his Facebook presence and other social media stuff. And I remember at the end of of this evening where
He took us out for dinner and we had you know, just time to hang out and talk. I was sharing with him about some things that were going on with the church that I was at. And my wife and I were struggling and we were wondering what we should do. And he ultimately told me that he knew, because he grew up not as a Christian. He he came to faith like around his his mid-teens.
Dru Johnson (13:28)
Hmm.
Mike Chu (13:28)
And he he expressed to me that he did feel sad that he knew that because of his
You know, because of his title, of the research, of what he had learned, that a lot of the churches that he used to associate with may not feel very eager to invite him in to speak. Right?
Dru Johnson (13:49)
Hm.
Mike Chu (13:49)
They may have come from a cer certain types of camps, and that they may not agree with his theology now. And so he felt a little saddened by that. But one of the things he told me was that he realized that.
He he will never find the perfect church. He will never find a church that he fits in completely and feels most comfortable all the time. But the question that he always asked himself is, how can I be useful? How can I be helpful to this community and to this church? And so that stuck with me. I mean, this was even before we found out about the cancer, but that
Dru Johnson (14:30)
Mm.
Mike Chu (14:30)
really struck me.
Me for a long time. And I think that’s probably what you know slowly churned within me that you know we’re still at the same church. And actually now
Dru Johnson (14:39)
Mm.
Mike Chu (14:40)
I’m a I’m a teaching pastor at this church. And so it is it is a a testimony to that as smart as Mike was, I think his compassion and his his servant nature was also very prominent in my mind. Of like, he didn’t hoard his knowledge, he wanted to share.
what he knew, what he had learned, and wanted to share that abundantly with anyone who was willing to learn.
Dru Johnson (15:07)
Yeah, so to that end, he you know, I had a Jewish friend that got hooked on Mike Heiser for a a long time. and he was telling me he’s watched dozens and dozens of hours of videos of him, and read his books. And and there’s part of me that thinks, wow, where does he get the energy? Tom Wright has the same problem, right? He pumps out tons of stuff and then once I got to know Tom, I was like, you’re an extrovert. Like you you’re just going all the time.
was Michael Heiser somebody who was just constantly like the energizer bunny?
Mike Chu (15:44)
I I guess so. I’m not sure if I would say he was a extrovert, but I would say that he was he he just had always something he wanted to share and say.
Dru Johnson (15:54)
Hm.
Mike Chu (15:54)
If that was if that is anything to to compliment him on, is just that you know, if if if he could dis he also had this very interesting discerning nature. He could figure out if someone was just trying to get something out of him.
Dru Johnson (16:07)
Mm.
Mike Chu (16:07)
Right? Of like, you just want me to answer your Bible question. Or or a pastor would
You know, like, hey, can you just help me out with this one thing? He can discern that really quickly. But if he generally detected, you’re actually really interested. You you’re you’re a student, you’re a learner. You actually are hungry to learn. Yeah, let’s talk. Let’s hang out, let’s grab some coffee, let’s sit down. Actually, he didn’t drink coffee, but words, he would love to chat with you. And I I’d I I was amazed actually, because I remember there were pictures that his wife had even posted w on
That even towards the end of his life, he was still reading the the journals from ETS and SBL.
Dru Johnson (16:50)
Hm.
Mike Chu (16:51)
And we’re talking about he’s nearing the end of his life, and yet he’s still reading the articles that are coming out, the peer review materials that are coming out, because he was still wanting to keep up with what was happening. He was still practicing his Hebrew. I remember him talking about, I’m practicing now the haunt our cal stem again. It was like
my gosh, it’s like you’re going through chemo. It’s like, well, what else am I going to do? So yeah,
Dru Johnson (17:15)
Hm. That’s pretty amazing.
Mike Chu (17:19)
his mind was just always wanting to learn. And I think that’s also maybe a key insight that if a person always wants to learn, then part of that process is you also want to teach it because you learn the best when you can also teach
Dru Johnson (17:30)
Yes.
Mike Chu (17:31)
it.
Dru Johnson (17:31)
Yep. For sure. and so he’s put a lot of his co he had put a lot of his content out of there before he passed away. he so you were you were saying he might not be invited into some of the churches that he used to associate with because of his views. So let’s get into this view. You and I both know that I have mixed emotions about the divine council worldview. I’m sympathetic but cautiously skeptic skeptical of certain aspects of it.
I think it’s a very eminently reasonable way to read scripture, even if I’m still not quite there on the same plane with it. But what is what is the divine counsel worldview and like you know, why does it matter? I guess is the big big question that a lot of people ’cause as soon as you describe it, I a lot of people are gonna be thinking, like, does this matter? Or or some people are gonna be thinking that sounds heretical.
Mike Chu (18:28)
Well, if I if I were to do a thirty thousand foot view from what is the Divine Council worldview, it simply is take
Dru Johnson (18:34)
Just below the Divine Council.
Just fly right under the Divine Council.
Mike Chu (18:39)
Okay. Yeah.
It’s like what like what is this? Like what is this divine counsel and and and what is this worldview that folks speak about? I would simply just describe it as this is taking the biblical or at least the biblical authors and their original audiences’ perspective on what is the supernatural world like. Right? And and and actually treating that as a tangible reality that is
parallel along with the physical reality that they are living out as well. Right. I think one of the interesting things and side effects of the Enlightenment age was that we had essentially in Western culture bifurcated the spiritual and the physical apart. As though there is some sort of really barrier that is not that penetrable between the two. And that whenever there is some sort of interaction between them, it’s very rare.
And yet from the ancient near Eastern perspective and even from the Second Temple perspective, it appears more like they actually saw these two things are going on at the same time. It’s simply just that we as physical beings cannot see this unseen reality and or this unseen realm. Use the title from Heiser’s own book. And and so that I would say is essentially what the Divine Council worldview is trying to get at is that this is an actual tangible.
world that does exist and does have an effect not only in the biblical text, but has implications to what does that mean in our own application for modern life.
Dru Johnson (20:17)
Yeah. two things there. one, and this is one of my points of like hedging, and and all my hedging is tentative. I’m just, you know, I’m I’m just
Mike Chu (20:26)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (20:26)
thinking through things. I just take years to get to these points. is the separation of spiritual from material. So I I’m not quite sure that the Hebrews, even in the Iron Age, actually thought that the spiritual world was immaterial, but that they thought it was material as well or physical as well. That’s one possibility.
Mike Chu (20:45)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (20:47)
But also I feel like a lot of Christians when they heard your description just now of like the unseen realm, there’s a spiritual world that’s alongside the physical world. I feel like most Christians are gonna be like, Yeah, of course. Isn’t that just what Christians have always believed?
Mike Chu (21:03)
Yeah, and I would say so f for first, I would agree with you on that. And I I remember even d Heiser had admitted that he he is uncomfortable with the term supernatural because
Dru Johnson (21:14)
Hmm.
Mike Chu (21:14)
it almost implies as though it’s separated, as
Dru Johnson (21:17)
Yeah.
Mike Chu (21:17)
though even supernatural beings don’t have a type of material.
Dru Johnson (21:21)
Right, right.
Mike Chu (21:22)
and he would point to Paul’s words about you know about the resurrected body, that the somehow somehow it’s a spiritual body made of celestial spiritual material. but
For broiling it down to something that us moderns could understand. That was kind of why he landed there. But I I see what you you’re talking about. and secondly, yes, it it would be simply talking about something that seems familiar with us, right? About the spiritual world, about heaven and about earth. I think the the interesting emphasis about this worldview is that it actually has tangible effect, that there are things that are going on within the biblical text where we see
folks like the prophets interacting or even getting a little insight into what is going on in these discussions in this divine council, in this throne room of God. And that there is actual a an actual effect that is tangible that is seen in their accounts of the scripture and even what we saw later on in actual written history of things happening, right? Where we have a council meeting where the Lord actually wants to
That’s it, I’m done with King Ahab. How should we take him out? And a spirit appears and says, I will be a deceiving spirit. And ultimately, Ahab does die. And so there is this interesting kind of parallel of so something that happens in the heavenly realm has actually a tangible effect in the physical realm. And and that we get glimpses of, that can happen. And I think that kind of
emphasis helps make that more real or more tangible for the modern Christian. and I think also and I shared this with some other friends in the last couple of months. I know from from myself, you know, I am a American-born Chinese person. But I also, you know, but there is that Chinese part where I grew up in a culture where the supernatural, where spirits, angels, demons,
witches, whatever else, ghosts, that was actually all considered to be real.
Dru Johnson (23:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Chu (23:36)
And so when I encountered and finally slowly became a Christian myself, none of the supernatural stuff weirded me out. It actually fascinated
Dru Johnson (23:43)
Hmm.
Mike Chu (23:44)
me because, I’m getting an account of what is actually true, what’s actually more true than all the, you know, the folk tales I might have heard as a child.
Dru Johnson (23:54)
Mm.
Mike Chu (23:55)
But that this is actually something that’s happening in a world that I cannot normally see.
Dru Johnson (24:01)
Yeah, so that and that l y well, I want to point out something that you did there that I think is important if if people did not notice it, is when I push back on the issue of supernatural or physical versus spiritual, you you went back to Heiser’s actual teaching and said, Well, yeah, okay, you know, there’s like what you can say to a general Christian audience, and then there’s these
Mike Chu (24:22)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (24:23)
really nuanced views that he holds that have a lot of depth to them and a lot of evidence behind them.
And I only say that because that is probably true with a lot of things scholars say. Like, let me put this in the words that you understand. But, you know,
Mike Chu (24:39)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (24:40)
I in a chapter in a book I wrote once, I was like, I I can’t use the word supernatural because I don’t think that’s a thing. But if I say natural, meaning
Mike Chu (24:48)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (24:48)
supernatural, people aren’t gonna know what I mean. So what do you do? Right.
Mike Chu (24:52)
Well it
Dru Johnson (24:53)
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
Mike Chu (24:54)
Well, I mean that that goes to a point, for example, like like you know, Heiser is well known for Unseen Realm, but he wrote books later such as you know, Reversing Hermann or Angels and Then Demons. And
Dru Johnson (25:05)
Team’s, yeah.
Mike Chu (25:07)
I remember when some folks read Angels, that was the first book to really come out after Unseen Realm. A lot of people were eager for like, this is gonna be like Unseen Realm 2. And some of the initial reactions were, wow, this was boring.
Right, because cause all of a sudden cause they were really wanting to get into like what about the fallen angels and what about this and what about that?
Dru Johnson (25:28)
Yes.
Mike Chu (25:29)
And he really just went in depth into like what is a throne guardian? What is a cherubim essentially? What like what what is an a malak? What is an angel? And and I remember even at the introduction of the book, he mentioned about how the word angel is such a generic kind of moniker
now.
Dru Johnson (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Chu (25:51)
Because it really
just essentially means messenger. It could be refer referring to a human or a spiritual messenger. But because of modern vernacular, right, we’ve we’ve now associated the pri the word’s primary meaning to be a spiritual being that is sent from God to help you. And and so thus he he uses those words because he knows for the average Christian or average reader, they will automatically know what you mean when you say angels and demons.
But not what what you may mean when you say a divine being or a malak, right? Or it it it will be more confusing. I d I do r r remember the beginning as well because he also asked the question, so Mike, why does this matter? And his response is: it matters for us to understand how who these loyal spiritual beings are, because we get to see how do loyal divine beings
Interact loyally to Yahweh.
Dru Johnson (26:54)
Hmm.
Mike Chu (26:55)
And seeing how they interact with the Creator, we can get a sense and pattern of then how should we, who are loyal to Yahweh himself, should also behave and act in his family. That they are a model to us of what it means to be loyal.
Dru Johnson (27:13)
Yeah, and that’s you know, I think he’s one of the people again, Tim Mackey has done a lot of this with Bible Project as well, but has he found a way to kind of split the difference between scholarship and and kind of lay association. So angels, it’s it honestly, it’s one of the most c controversial class periods that I teach when I get around to saying, Okay, what are angels? And we just look at different versions and I say, Look, angels
They seem to hang out more on earth because they’re this is where they’re supposed to be giving their message. they eat, they drink, they sleep, you know. Some of them, some of them just light up bushes and speak from a bo, you know. like and and what I’m actually fighting in that discussion, I f it took me too long to figure out, is that people are just going, No, none of that. Angels are
Babies with bows and arrows and wings in the
Mike Chu (28:10)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (28:10)
heavens, right? Like and they’re they’re the things that are surrounding God in the heavens. And you’re like, well, there you you there there’s there’s a story to be told from the Old and New Testament about that, that picture as well. But there’s such a mis mismatch. That’s just one example where there’s such a mismatch in the in the label angel and all the content that’s loaded by culture, and then what scripture is actually doing in its own context. And he seemed to find a way between those two, but of
Give one huge caveat. He found a way because he attracted people. This is my opinion. You can tell me if this is right or wrong. He attracted people to his style of teaching where like he hooked them in so they would hang in to hear how it all worked, right? Or at least one
Mike Chu (28:52)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (28:53)
way in which he thought it all worked.
Mike Chu (28:55)
Yes.
Dru Johnson (28:57)
and so in that way, he’s a very it’s a very personality centered teaching. So he didn’t like run the center of divine world council thought.
It was it was Michael Heiser because he could get people to pay attention long enough and with enough attention to what he was saying to get to get them to hear it all out rather than just look for a hot take and move on. Is that correct me. What what is not true about that that view?
Mike Chu (29:25)
I think it’s it’s misunderstanding the type of people who were drawn to Heiser, right? I think what he often would address is that the folks that that usually come to him and want to ask questions or really get into his research, they’re the kind of person that may be more, I guess you could say, intellectual inside a church
Dru Johnson (29:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Chu (29:47)
community. They may be those who who think really deeply and want to ask really good questions.
But more often than not, their experience of when they try to ask that maybe to their pastor, to a small group, is simply, well, who cares? Like what does this really have to apply
Dru Johnson (30:05)
Right.
Mike Chu (30:05)
to my life? Why should I know anything about Deborah the prophet? Why should I know anything about who is the inside this divine council? Who cares about the sons of God? Let’s just get to the brass tacks of how do I manage my money? How do I tithe? How do I share the gospel to my five-year-old? Like, you know, like
There’s nothing wrong with that. But he found that a lot of the folks that came to him and were asking him these questions were frustrated within their churches where they weren’t receiving good answers. And because of that, then they started searching for answers from everywhere else. And not necessarily very good answers. Sometimes just outrightly anti-uh Bible, anti-Christian, or just even just.
sort of Christian adjacent, but then goes down a very conspiratorial type of pathway.
Dru Johnson (30:56)
Right, right.
Mike Chu (30:57)
And more often than not, the testimonies that I had heard from folks who’ve known Mike was that he actually helped re-orient them back into orthodoxy because they met a scholar who was willing to take the time to answer questions, to help them think through, like, okay, is this a bad way of thinking? I guess I did go down a bad way of thinking and
Dru Johnson (31:18)
Mm.
Mike Chu (31:18)
course correct. But
You know, that that takes time. And I think that is one of the things that I appreciated about Mike was that he had that heart and compassion of, hey, if you genuinely are wanting to learn, let’s talk and let’s discuss this together. And slowly kind of walk the person through of like, hey, maybe this might not be the best piece, but that’s a good question. Where does that lead? And asking really good questions and the person appreciates being heard and being shown. Where is this evidence? Where is the research?
Instead of simply told, Look, that’s not the point of the Bible study. That’s not the point of this. We don’t really who cares? Right? And and that kind of stuff frustrated him.
Dru Johnson (31:58)
Yeah. So that that’s a good thank you for correcting me on that. this I think but and you know, this is all anecdotal. Who you run into kind of shapes your vision of the the the bigger glob of people behind them.
Mike Chu (32:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (32:15)
and so I have definitely run into some divine world council people who can’t even understand why somebody would like why a scholar would hedge, right? Now
When I listen to or read Mike Heiser, I never and you can correct me again here, but I never got the sense that he thought like his view was just so obvious that everybody should just agree with it because he’s laid it all. I mean, he he felt very strongly about his view, like that he you know, that it was rational and it it fit historically and textually. But is that right that he he kind of he left room for other alternative approaches?
Mike Chu (32:55)
He did, and and more often than not, he would actually state what is the alternative perspective. And sometimes he would do that first. He will actually mention this is, for example, like Genesis six, the sons of God interpretation. Is this godly is this talking about the sons of Cain? Is this talking about actual spiritual divine beings? Is this a mix between kings who are melded with some sort of divine being? He would explain out and lay out all the possibilities and then
And of course, then give his own conclusion about where he lands. But he also understands there this is where all these other perspectives are coming from. He will also lay out why he disagrees with them. But at the end of the day, you know, he’s trying to make it very clear, you need to be able to sh to show what your conclusion is based on good data. And, you know, I think that’s
You know, we mentioned and ta I talked about his whole experience of going through his PhD dissertation. That probably influenced a lot of that of can you actually back up your argument? I can sympathize because I had to do the same thing at Gordon. It’s the same kind of thing. It like the teacher may not necessarily agree with your conclusion, but you need to be able to present your argument with good data and research.
Dru Johnson (34:16)
Yeah. and he had done the work. and you know, it I I’m also I I haven’t quite fully got the the s the full story. but certainly there was a group of people who came out of University of Wisconsin Madison who had a similar divine counsel. And you know, you’ll get this with certain PhD institutions where they all have a particular course of study they take, and so they kind of all come to have this one lens,
Not you know, not like a constraining blinder or something like that. It’s just it’s just where they’ve been sitting for a few years and so they see it so clearly from that perspective. yeah, and and I again I got the I get the sense when I hear him that he thinks there are reasonable approaches in. He knows the data. It does kind of like Genesis and I I’m not litigating sons of God or anything, but I do want to get to divine counsel itself. but it
If if I’m correct, what I’ve read from him is it really depends on what you take Psalm eighty two, Genesis six, and other like statements. Sons of God, Bene Elohim, if that’s and we had a a previous episode with Jamie Duguid on this question that was really fun on the textual issue and the manuscript evidence as well, which was super fun. but do you take this to mean something like a divine being
sons of God to be I’m gonna I’m gonna use the word ontologically, the stuff that they are is divine, or do you take it to be kind of a humanistic term? Like these are just it’s just a kind of humans, right? Is would that be how you think he would put it today?
Mike Chu (35:58)
Yeah, I I would say l at least personally I would lean more towards the divine stuff, the cosmic material, whatever you may describe that to be. they’re that they’re not originally or normally at all human. if if if I were to describe it that way. And and that was pretty much where Dr. Heiser landed as well. Part of his explanation for why he would land there and like where part of his whole entire hermeneutic mo movement is
You know, going by the chronology of the yeah, his interpretive move is
Dru Johnson (36:28)
That’s an interpretive movement, right? Yeah.
Mike Chu (36:32)
if you’re going by the chronology of how the scriptures are laid out and how they’re written, when they were written, then the interpretation that provides the best explanation for why you see later texts that seem to expound on a similar idea would probably be closer to what the writer and their audience are working off from, right? Because if it helps explain later texts that you see, that phrase, sons of God.
Bene Bene Elohim, then that may be the better explanation to go forward with. Right. And so that’s why he went down that pathway.
Dru Johnson (37:07)
Yeah. And in i ironically in criti it’s not ironic, in critical scholarship you have people who would say, no, no, Genesis was written way after, you know, that psalm or Genesis is written last of the Torah or something like that, who would say so there’s that then becomes in the critical side, which what’s which is the direction of influence and how does that
Mike Chu (37:26)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (37:27)
change things? But yeah, so I think this is the
You have these phrases and these things. The Elohim, which is famously the most common word for God is Elohim, but it’s the word gods, which you know is has it has its own confusions as to why that’s going on. But that it is speaking of these beings as Elohim. so you kind of have to and it also calls God Elohim as well. And again, that’s the most common reference to God as Elohim.
Mike Chu (38:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (38:01)
And so we’re trying to parse out why this is the case, right? And so Divine Council Worldview gives you a pretty coherent like look, if you take these few things to be true, it makes sense of all these other passages that seem a little confounding.
Mike Chu (38:15)
Yeah, and and if I can add Drew, there’s there’s a way that he had described it before, that the word Elohim I mean, like it yes, it can deal and touch with their actual material, like their cosmic material, sure. That’s that’s one way of looking at it. But he most often described it that Elohim would be better described as a place of residence of
Dru Johnson (38:36)
Hm.
Mike Chu (38:37)
where this particular being that you’re talking about came from. Well like where does it normally reside?
Right. And so that’s why when we see the word Elohim used throughout the scriptures, more often than not, if I’m pretty sure it’s not ever used directly to talk about human judges. That’s another that’s another tangent. But there for the most part, it talks about beings that are part of the spiritual realm. That either they are Malach that came from heaven, either they are Shadim that are in the in in Sheol. maybe they are talking about the human dead. Like
What happened with Samuel when he was brought up by the medium at Endor? That there are these moments where we see even a human being, but Samuel who is no longer alive, and yet his incorporeal spirit is somehow brought up. How does that work? I don’t know. But sim
Dru Johnson (39:30)
Or or he was
resurrected ’cause he was brought up from Sheol. It’s a very cryptic text because
Mike Chu (39:34)
It could be that too, but
Dru Johnson (39:35)
we actually don’t get any visuals on what’s actually going on in the scene. We only get this like weird third person narration.
Mike Chu (39:42)
Yes. And and and and and but obviously it’s it does it does seem that Saul could not see Samuel, right?
Dru Johnson (39:50)
Right, right.
Mike Chu (39:51)
The the the medium could. And so she had to describe back to him,
Dru Johnson (39:56)
Yes.
Mike Chu (39:56)
he’s a guy wearing a cloak, which just sends, you know, alarm bells for Saul because the last time he ever saw Samuel was he ripped the very cloak that that Samuel’s poor mom had made for him before she died, probably.
And right. So there’s that little callback of like, no, that
Dru Johnson (40:14)
Yeah.
Mike Chu (40:14)
is the guy. This is the person we’re talking about. so anyhow, so that that was the way that Heiser had normally described that Elochim is a better thought of as a place of residence. Where is this being or this person currently from?
Dru Johnson (40:31)
And namely not here residing on Earth like a normal human being. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Chu (40:36)
No. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (40:38)
that’s really helpful. He also, you know, again speaking to him as a as a Christian man, he also recognized that people took some of his ideas, and fed them kind of into conspiracy theories and all kinds of cryptozoological
Mike Chu (40:58)
yeah.
Dru Johnson (40:59)
Yeah, I I know he was on
blurry creatures podcast which is about you know bigfoots and ufo’s and other
Mike Chu (41:05)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (41:06)
things. Can you talk a little bit about his interaction with that group of people who you know who let’s just say maximalize some minimal references in scripture to to try to explain to try to explain phenomena that humans are reporting over these last centuries.
Mike Chu (41:24)
I think w I think one of those things I loved about Mike was that whenever he was asked those kind of questions, he did try to tease out like where are they coming from and and what what is the what is the underlying hope of it. But one of the one of the great things about him is that he would always bring it back to to the scripture and back to the research that is actually you can authenticate, that there are actual people who did the did did e the digging either into the text.
or into the background or historical references in order to kind of elucidate what he’s trying to get at. And sometimes it was to correct certain lines of thinking, right? And you know w there was a f episode where he did an interview with this one particular set of, you know, YouTube channels where he was talking about what is theosis. And
Why theosis is actually a very relevant thing for even evangelicals to start to comprehend about what does it mean for us to actually be participating in the divine nature of this triune God that we love and follow? What does it mean to actually live in light of that? And what are the future implications of that? And and and one of the I mean, I think the I the interesting thing is he probably did not know that he needed to say that.
As much as he did, because towards the end of his life, that was actually something that he kept repeating, was that he knew that however he goes, whenever that does happen, he ultimately will become part of this divine council in the sense of now being part of God’s throne room, participating in what is happening, witnessing what is happening, that he isn’t just a spectator, but somehow involved with what’s going on. And
I guess as he his life slowly was coming towards the end, that became more and more real of why theosis was such an important concept for us as Christians to actually to learn again and and embrace of how important that is in our life. I mean, even recently for me at my own church, I have been preaching about theosis a few times and just the actual implication. What does it mean to know and to live in that reality that
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are actually with us, are empowering us, and that we get to participate in their life because we are one family under them.
Dru Johnson (43:51)
Hmm. Yeah. And so it kind of leads me to the final question I want to ask is where does the divine council fit into the age of resurrection, the new heavens,
Mike Chu (44:06)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (44:07)
the new earth? how does that fit into this kind of storyline that we find in scripture of the kind of the the as Paul says, the uniting of things on heaven and earth?
Mike Chu (44:17)
I think one of the things that especially when folks read through Mike’s material and how he kind of how he traced it, towards the end of the podcast that he was, you know, primarily known for, he did a whole series studies on the book of Revelation, which which is what’s kinda ironic because he never wanted to deal with apocalyptic stuff. He hated talking about eschatology. And
Dru Johnson (44:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Chu (44:42)
and yet here he is doing a whole study of it.
But his particular angle was what are the Old Testament references that the writer of Revelation is drawing from, remixing, and using? And the implications for the here and now and and for the already and not yet essentially is that the trajectory is that you have this group of sons of God who had rebelled, who had not taken care of.
And guardianship of humanity as they should have, of all the different nations. And ultimately, they are being replaced with actual human beings who are resurrected, who will take the place of these rebellious sons of God. They are being replaced by actual loyal sons of God, but who originally started out as human. And and that was that was how he interpreted the elders that are seen in the book of Revelation.
Dru Johnson (45:40)
Mm.
Mike Chu (45:41)
And and and about the crowns that are given to them, and about why Paul mentions things about how we will sit on the throne of Christ alongside him. Of like, how does that work? What does that mean that we will also judge the angels? Of like, why are we given this privilege? It somehow is because we’re united to King Jesus. And and so that was part of the implication that this is where we ultimately are going to be the replacements of.
all of those who had rebelled and and and the ones who have been redeemed because of what this Christ has done. And so that was I guess it I hope that explains it a little bit. I think he he got to
Dru Johnson (46:23)
No, that’s that’s perfect.
Mike Chu (46:24)
it towards the end of his life and it was really kinda awesome to hear him say it every so often.
I think one thing that why it also was personally irrelevant for me was you know, Dr. Heiser died on February twentieth. And that day was also the same day that my own big sister passed away. that like that Monday was President’s Day. And we had gotten a call in my home about my sister, she had
She had struggled with cancer for many, many years. And we essentially knew that today was gonna be probably her last her last set of hours. And so towards the end, after our family and friends had visited, my wife and I were planning on just staying overnight because we didn’t know when it was gonna happen. She was already not responsive.
Dru Johnson (47:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Chu (47:24)
And so I went back home while my wife stayed, so that we could I could pack up some bags for us to be able to stay overnight.
And I get a text message from Dr. Heiser’s wife that he had passed away a few hours earlier.
And before I could even process that, I then get a phone call from my wife saying, You need to come now. And so I rushed back and I was able to say goodbye to my sister and and everything. But a a lot of that hunt our time, I’m thinking and every so often the thought of Dr. Heiser passed away and my sister passed away on this same day. And if there is such a thing as a divine counsel, it brought a smile to my face in this idea that
Who knows, maybe there’s a orientation day during the like, welcome to being part of the w you know, this new reality
Dru Johnson (48:15)
Right.
Mike Chu (48:17)
of of of living. And and they’re all introducing themselves and Dr. Heiser looks to my sister and it’s like, wait, what what what was your last name again? Like I I I seem to know a guy, Chu. Someone wait, you don’t happen to know a guy named Mike Chu, would you? And and it brought a smile to my face in that both both these people I I hold dear.
met on the same day. And and and I guess that’s probably what I mean about why there is an implication to it. Because in my mind, I was able to kind of imagine and see not just this ambivalent of and it you know, ambiguous idea of, my sister’s somehow floating in the clouds. But that there actually is a destiny and a place of what you are going to be doing, of what you’re involved with in this divine council worldview. That you’re not just sitting around as a spectator.
But you’re actually going to participate in the very will and judgments of God. And
Dru Johnson (49:16)
Yeah.
Mike Chu (49:17)
that is awesome.
Dru Johnson (49:18)
Yeah, and I think that kind of eschatological view of that history does not end, that we’re actually doing things. you know, I I heard someone just recently sorry, it drives me a little bit crazy when I hear I understand the the sentiment and I don’t want to poo poo the sentiment, but it’s you know, heaven is gonna be us singing this worship song twenty four twenty four seven and I’m like, I hope not
Mike Chu (49:45)
Ha ha ha.
Dru Johnson (49:45)
Because if that’s it,
I’m I’m gonna be honest, I’m gonna bail after a while. but that there’s actually there’s things going on, history continues, relationships that I mean, I you know, my my own view as well would be people can still get to know each other. You can you
Mike Chu (50:00)
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (50:00)
know, an inexhaustibly rich level of of exploration can still go on. So Mike Chu, thank you very much for introducing us to the thinking. And I especially appreciate that.
The thinking and the life of Michael Heiser are completely suffused together in and how you explain him to us. And I personally just really appreciated how delicately you tease those two things apart for us.
Mike Chu (50:28)
Thank you for inviting me, Dru
