Dru Johnson (00:00)
Two weeks ago, we posted an episode where I interviewed two Christian theologians, one Palestinian, one American, about this question what does it mean to be Christian after the desolation of Gaza? ⁓ that was a long episode, an hour and a half. ⁓ they had lots to say, lots for us to chew on and think about.
If you have not listened to that episode, you should go back and listen to that one as well. It will be part one. It’s with Bruce Fisk and Daniel Bannoura In this episode, I told you that we were going to bring and invite a response from Robert Nicholson, who has spent most of his life studying the Middle East. He spent ⁓ much of his time in the Middle East with Jordanians and Israelis and Palestinians. ⁓ he has sponsored research by all of those people.
He has been in the room with a lot of the a lot of the movers and shakers on both the Palestinian and Israeli side of these big policy and political decisions. So ⁓ he knows of which he speaks. He is going to bring a different perspective, but also bring some of the history of this conflict, maybe ⁓ things that most Americans aren’t aware of or how things work in the Middle East.
at some various points, he’s going to have some direct pushback from our guest in the first episode, and I’m sure they would have some direct pushback for him as well. But here at the Center for Hebraic Thought, the Biblical Mind podcast, we believe it’s good to gain multiple perspectives. So lest lest we become too narrowly dogmatic and ⁓ narrow-minded in our thinking. And again, if I invited 20 more guests from the Middle East on this topic, we would get 20 more perspectives, and none of them would overlap.
Perfectly. So these are just two of many that we could share. If you appreciate conversations like these, even difficult conversations, ⁓ please give us a like or follow, ⁓ or you can give us a rating at your favorite podcast outlet.
As well, another call out. If you have some design skills, we need a little help with some simple design projects that we could probably do ourselves, but we want them to look better than what we would create. So you can email us at our contact page at thebiblicalmind.org. And if you want to give, you can give at thebiblicalmind.org/slash give
Now to this episode.
Dru Johnson (02:18)
Couple of weeks ago I interviewed Bruce Fisk and Daniel Bannoura about their ⁓ book, Being Christian After the Desolation of Gaza. And you had a chance to listen to that episode now. And I wonder, A, w what did you hear that you really thought was helpful and beneficial that all Christians should be thinking through very seriously about? ⁓ what did you hear them push out there that you thought we needed to hear?
Robert Nicholson (02:48)
Well, thank you, Dru. It’s great to be on the The Biblical Mind and appreciate the invitation to talk about this this new book. I I should say I have not yet read this book. I I did, however, hear the conversation that you did with the two authors. And ⁓ I think it’s a good place to start. What here is is worth thinking about. I would say two things that to me are are related.
The first one is that the the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, whatever whatever we’re calling it ⁓ this week, is ⁓ the kind of conflict that deserves serious thought and ideally serious ⁓ theological thought. It seems that what these two authors are trying to do is to say, you know that big conflict you’ve heard about.
in and around Jerusalem, well, there there are layers to that conflict that make it unique among conflicts. And we should be thinking about and talking about those layers. And I I agree with that very much. ⁓ related to that is the second point, which is that there are in fact Christians in the Holy Land. I don’t think it’s as as unknown maybe as as the authors ⁓ explained, but
To the extent there are brothers and sisters in Christ living in the Holy Land, whether they identify as Israeli or Palestinian, whether as Jews or as as Arabs, we should care about them. I think it was no less than than Jesus himself, who said, By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another. And I think that we as Christians not just should, but must. We have an obligation.
to care about other Christians in in whatever state that they’re in. Obviously not only in in this part of the world. It could be also in in China and India or wherever that wherever they may be. But I think that it’s very easy for all of us, not even just those of us living in the West, to live in isolation and just think that we are our community, our denomination, my city is really the only part of of Christendom that matters. And of course that’s not true. So I appreciate
those Palestinian Christians, including ⁓ one of the authors, who are out there saying that, hey, you know, we we we exist. We we are a people and we have things to say.
Dru Johnson (05:23)
Yeah, ⁓ he made the point as well that there’s recently been this, hey, we have Christian brothers and sisters in Nigeria, of course, and ⁓ and in Gaza, excuse me, Gaza, you know, because a church was there’s a bomb dropped next to a church in Gaza. ⁓ and so that but he he also wanted to make the point, but if you just stop there with these are Christian brothers and sisters
That’s not going farther far enough because you’re not dealing with the Islamophobia and the kind of anti Arab sentiment in the West. do you how how do you see that?
Robert Nicholson (06:01)
Well, I I partially agree and and partially disagree. I think that in general I I heard a lot of caricatures, a lot of straw men, right? I don’t know who these people are that
the authors are referring to when they when they make it sound like there are these, you know, hordes of American Christians, Western Christians who are either totally oblivious to these things or have are filled with all of this, you know, hate and rage. And that hate and rage is driving their their finger at the voting booth and and the policies of the country. I mean, it’s it’s there’s quite a lot of steps to get from, you know, where
they they say most American Christians are at and where, you know, the conflict is at or where the world is at. I I there are there are a number of links in that causal chain that I would dispute. And I think that, you know, American Christians are Islamophobic, just I it doesn’t hold weight in my personal experience. I think there are genuine objective reasons that Americans are concerned about
Islamic terrorism. I I don’t feel like anybody really needs to defend that statement. I I it’s it’s I I I really don’t even know what to say about it. It’s not as if any concern about about Muslims is is invented. I mean there are there are genuine national security concerns ⁓ that that are rooted in in some of these radical groups. Having said that, I think that
It is it is true that American Christians don’t live in the Middle East. I mean, look, I studied the Middle East, I’ve got degrees in Middle East stuff, but it’s not until you go there and spend a lot of time there, not as a tourist, but you know, going into people’s homes and and just kind of walking around that you really get a sense for for who all of these people are. And even when it comes to Muslims, right? Who which
Different kinds of Muslims, different, you know, flavors or or levels of of intensity, however you want to put it. So I think there’s there’s some accuracy in the fact that most American Christians have not been to ⁓ Israel, have not been to the West Bank, have not been to Gaza, not traveled the region. I don’t think that’s their fault, but to the extent that the authors are trying to make a corrective, I suppose that’s that’s helpful.
Dru Johnson (08:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so that ⁓ it’s interesting you bring up that that that’s not your experience of the American church. ⁓ that’s the way I feel as well. But I also think, well, maybe I’m just in the weird part of the American church or maybe I gravitate towards the part that is is not, you know, ⁓ shouting down Muslims ’cause because they’re Muslims or something like that. I mean, is there data on these things that we could put to this or where would we look to to see whether I again ’cause of the i the
The nature of these kinds of discussions is we do have to make generalizations and the the temp the temptation is to turn the generalization into caricature. And so I wonder what are the for you, what are the kind of solid points of data that make you think here’s where the issues actually are when it comes to the church in the Middle East.
Robert Nicholson (09:21)
It’s a it’s a great point. I think there is one, I don’t have anything in front of me here, but there is a study that’s been done by the Pew Forum. They’ve done it at least once, maybe more than once.
Where they actually break down attitudes of American subcultures towards other subcultures, right? So what do American evangelicals think about Jews? What do they think about Muslims? What do Mormons think about evangelicals? It’s a sort of a a cr you know X and Y axis and it shows you ⁓ you know, generally speaking, based on their surveys, where people are at about these different groups. I t to be fair to the authors of this book.
Dru Johnson (09:39)
Hm.
Yeah.
Robert Nicholson (10:03)
I don’t think American evangelicals are rating ⁓ Muslims super high. ⁓ conversely, I’m pretty sure American Muslims are not way you know s putting ⁓ American evangelicals super high either, right? So I would say that
That is important. It’s important to know what’s actually true, as best as you know, scientists are able to determine. But it’s it’s also important to to foreground in all of these conversations. This is the way I approach it, ⁓ the the reality that the vast majority of people in the vast majority of the world are pretty much ignorant about people who are not them. And by the way, that goes for Palestinian Christians.
Dru Johnson (10:45)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (10:48)
as much as as as you or I. Meaning if I’m traveling in in Ramallah or I mean pick another place, if I’m traveling in ⁓ Addis Ababa, I I it’d be foolish for me to walk around thinking that these people know who I am and they understand where I’m from and what I think. I mean, they know what they see on TV. They pick up things in conversation. And I I think, you know, there’s a there’s a great saying in the Mishnah. It’s I can do this because this is a Center for Hebraic thought.
Dru Johnson (11:16)
Yeah, send it for a break thought,
yeah.
Robert Nicholson (11:18)
⁓ Dan at Kolha Dam ⁓ L Khafzachut, which is to I think it’s attributed to Joshua ben Prachya, which is to say weigh judge every man with the scales weighed in his favor. And I try to do that with other people. I don’t always succeed, and I I I just hope that everybody can kind of do the same ⁓ as well.
Dru Johnson (11:40)
Yeah, and to their point and your point, being on the ground and knowing people does make a difference. And in fact, we’ve seen this with the World Cup, the New York Times podcast, just an entire episode on all these people who traveled to America and have been shocked by by how Americans are, right? And in a good way. And in fact, I was seeing this on my own social media feeds, you know. Of course, I have a Scottish algorithm in there as well, because I lived in Scotland twice.
Robert Nicholson (11:55)
I love it. I love it.
Dru Johnson (12:07)
But these Scots going and Australians just going like, hey, hey, people back home, we have been lied to. The the these people are great and they’re and and of course everybody’s on their best behavior, but they’re kind of seeing the best of America. And I feel like that’s my experience when I travel ⁓ in Palestinian territories and Israel as well, is that people on the whole are pretty great and don’t have a lot of animosity. ⁓
Robert Nicholson (12:13)
And
Dru Johnson (12:34)
Although there is some very focused animosity. Let maybe we should talk about ⁓ you know, there’s that great YouTube channel and I forget what it’s called. It’s got its problems, but he just goes around and asks people questions sent to him by viewers on the streets in the West Bank and in ⁓ in Israel. And he just asked them, like, if you could destroy all the Palestinians today with a push of button, would you? And of course, ⁓ this now this is before October seventh. Most Israelis said, No, of course I wouldn’t, right? ⁓ and most Palestinians said, No, of course I wouldn’t, right? ⁓
So you’re I guess the question is you hear stats on what people think. Even things like in the West Bank, the pew I think it was the Pew poll that said you still had a high degree of favorability towards Hamas even two years later. But ⁓ you know, the people I’ve talked to from Gaza say, Well, yeah, they’ve never lived under Hamas. So like, what do they got to lose by supporting it? And then I’ve heard other people say, Well, yeah, but they think
They think Hamas only attacked military target. They literally they so maybe help us figure out like the complexities of even saying this is what people believe on the ground.
Robert Nicholson (13:44)
My experience that is that people talking about Palestinians and the Palestinian cause again, are are are quite ignorant about what Palestinians themselves are thinking, they’re talking about the different disagreements that they have and all of that. So you’re really you’re you’re hitting on that here. And
Dru Johnson (14:01)
Not the authors of the
of this book that we’re talking about, but
Robert Nicholson (14:05)
Right, but but just in general, I’m talking about people who have podcasts like this one will sit whether I don’t know whether they’re Christian or not Christian, just people who are weighing in with opinions on this conflict usually don’t look under the hood. Let’s say less less frequently than than you would hope. And you’re pointing to Palestinian polls, which I consume rather religiously. I’m always curious, what are Palestinians actually thinking about right now?
Dru Johnson (14:23)
Hmm. Hmm.
Robert Nicholson (14:34)
And thankfully, such such data is available. And you’re right that Palestinians in the West Bank, not only, but Palestinians in the West Bank are still showing a lot of favor for for Hamas. And I think it’s not it’s not surprising given where things were at on October sixth, 2023. Palestinians for years, years and years, as as tracked by
publicly available ⁓ opinion surveys were showing deep frustration at their situation, right? More and more and more and more. In the years that I’ve been working on this, it it just steadily deteriorated, right? And it was largely frustration directed toward, yes, the conflict and the Zionists, but also at their own leaders, right? All their parties kind of were were called into question. Their their president is famously
Dru Johnson (15:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (15:34)
one of the most unpopular Palestinians i i in in Palestine. And Hamas originally wasn’t getting great ratings, but over time that frustration, there was one question on those surveys that where you could see this thing coming out, which was ⁓ I’m gonna paraphrase it. I can’t remember exactly how they they framed it, but they basically asked Palestinians, what do you think is the best way to get what we as Palestinians need? And they they would, you know, it’s sort of like peaceful
nonviolence, ⁓ international diplomacy, armed struggle, right? And the in the support for the armed struggle before October seventh was growing and growing and growing, even among people I know, right? There was a feeling that we’re not getting what we want, this whole thing isn’t working, nobody’s listening to us. We we kind of have to do what we have to do. And I think that Hamas scored a lot of points among people who otherwise would not have considered supporting Hamas.
Dru Johnson (16:05)
Mm.
Yeah.
Robert Nicholson (16:34)
Because yeah, they’re SOBs, but there are SOBs, and they actually got something done. Like they forced Israel to act. They forced the United States. They forced the forced the whole world to remember that we exist. And don’t forget, Palestinians at that point were feeling extremely overlooked, right? Because Israel’s making peace with other Arab states, this whole Abraham Accords thing. And they felt that the world had moved on. But what about us? Right. And so I think that you do find ⁓ unfortunately.
A surprising amount of support for the core ideology of Hamas, right? That that sort of radical apocalyptic Islamic thing. But you also find all of these people who are not necessarily wired for that, but look about look at these people as ⁓ as freedom fighters. And by the way, if you say, well, isn’t your ⁓ your sort of secular moderate leadership, the current president and the
Palestinian Parliament, isn’t that a better alternative? It it’s very likely that they will turn to you and say, Okay, fine, but what have they done? What what steps have they taken to improve our situation? And that desperation I think is has fed so much of this and is still very present ⁓ on the s on the street in in the West Bank in Gaza.
Dru Johnson (17:52)
Yeah, and so that building frustration, ⁓ and I’m glad you pointed out the Palestinian leadership, because I think that’s pretty renowned. Even even people who only know a little know that the corruption of the Palestinian leadership or the inabilities of the Palestinian leadership has been a point a sore point for Palestinians for a long time now. ⁓ but I if we think in terms of this growing popularity of anybody who will do something.
What’s the other option from Israel’s side? I guess, what could Is Israel have done to relieve the pressure here? Granted that assuming Israel is not gonna change all of their protocols and policies overnight, ⁓ but what do you think would be so and you can feel free to speculate here, maybe if they had done X, Y, and Z, they could have created some some ease for the Palestinians to start living their lives the way they wanted to?
Robert Nicholson (18:52)
Right. Well
Dru Johnson (18:54)
I know you’ve got thoughts on this.
Robert Nicholson (18:57)
I I do. I’m trying to think about the the most succinct way to to give them. So I would say that I think I know what I don’t want to speak for them, but but let me speculate as to what the authors of this book might say. They would say something like Israel never gave ⁓ Mahmoud Abbas Abu Mazin and his government a real chance. Rather than criticize him for what he was not doing.
They should have praised him and supported him for for what he was doing, meaning ⁓ trying to provide that, I don’t know, middle way, some kind of secular expression of of Palestinian nationalism. And that if Israel, and particularly, you know, everyone’s favorite Israeli, Benjamin Netanyahu, had had done that, that release valve may have been opened, Hamas would have seemed less attractive.
as an alternative and one thing would lead to another and inch by inch we would kind of get closer to peace, right? This vision of of a two-state solution, which in some ways is anachronistic because it’s it’s so little supported these days. But that that’s probably some, you know, some version of of of what someone on the other side might say. I would say also they would say they would, they would ⁓ block settlements, right? They would, they would either shrink them or freeze them.
these are Jewish, you know, towns in in the West Bank. Things in that vein. Now, having said that, I’ll I’ll sort of channel the the Israeli perspective on this. And then I’m talking now about right, left, and center. This is the the vast majority of Israeli Jews who make up about 80% of the population, 20 20% or so are Israeli Arabs. Israeli Jews would would probably say something like,
Dru Johnson (20:31)
Okay.
Robert Nicholson (20:53)
You know, ⁓ fine. We w we were interested in that. That was the whole Oslo peace process that started in the nineties and continued inch by inch through through a very through the various different legal instruments to begin the process of devolving sovereignty over West Bank and Gaza to Palestinians. We worked with Yasser Arafat, ⁓ Abbas’s predecessor on that. When Arafat died, we continued working on that with with ⁓ Mahmoud Abbas, but this
Dru Johnson (21:00)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (21:23)
Big giant thing happened in the middle, which was this explosion of terrorism ⁓ in starting in the year 2000 that it was called the Second Intifada. And let’s let’s assume we have an Israeli peacek here on the podcast. I’m just gonna do the puppet show here. And ⁓ that person is pressed and saying, Well, okay, well, why would that, why would the second intifada derail a peace process, right? Peace is good for everyone.
Dru Johnson (21:50)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (21:51)
And that peacenick, who probably has become much less of a peacenick over the course of the last 20 years, would say something like, I believed all of it, lock, stock, and barrel, me and and all of my friends. But time after time after time, it it it was clear to us that either the Palestinian people, or at the very least, the Palestinian leadership, the the you know, the leadership that actually was shaping the events on the Palestinian side.
Was not only not interested in peace, but was trying its best to torpedo it, primarily through ⁓ a a slew for years of suicide bombings and other just heinous terrorist attacks. And, you know, let me be honest, my right wing friends turned to me and said, you know, how’s that peace going, their their buddy? And you know what? I have to say, they were right. And that that is the experience of so many Israelis, right? There’s a way to tell the history of this conflict where you see
⁓ you know, the Israeli people bringing a hammer down on on Palestinians, there’s another way to tell it that that reveals that that image is actually a green screen and that there is this, you know, terrorist or group of terrorists dressed in green who are prompting that that hammer to come down, right? And so that Israelis who really
I mean Israelis just want to be left alone and to live. I I just I can’t emphasize that point enough. And I that’s having met many Israelis. They there there’s never been a r an interest in in fighting. It’s just a small country. There’s very few people in Israel, right? Everybody’s got to fight. It means my son, my daughter is going to war. People don’t have an interest in that, but they do it when it seems that the process of peacemaking has been blocked by at the very least.
spoilers, right, who are killing Jews without without discrimination, or at worst, and and God forbid we think this, that large portions of of Palestinian society actually support that and are not ready for peace. And Jews don’t know which is true, and in the meantime feel that they have to defend themselves. And that’s that’s how an Israeli would would respond to to to sort of the the point I was making earlier.
Dru Johnson (24:15)
Yeah, it’s ⁓ you know, the the politics of the street, when when bombs are going off in cafes, it’s really hard to get a populace to turn towards peace at that point. And that that would be true in it in in every situation, right? And so we’re we’re kind of thinking about I for lack of a better word, the secular situation, like just just the history of the situation here. Bruce did mention when I asked him to kind of depict
How Israelis would think of themselves in this in this storyline of the history of the region. He he went straight to an issue which I I don’t think is unfair. He said, you know, fear is they’re afraid and they see themselves as victims, right? ⁓ as afraid. I don’t know if he used the word victim, but it seemed that he was painting a picture of victimhood. ⁓ we have two parties, Palestinians and the Israelis, who both perceiv have deep fears of the other.
And they both kind of perceive themselves as as victims in some ways, some at least some Israelis do. ⁓ what happens, I guess, what’s what good can come of that situation? How how do you get people to move off the yes, we know you have been wronged, but right? Is that or is that the way forward or is there some other way that I’m not seeing?
Robert Nicholson (25:34)
Look, i it it’s always healthier if we all disclose our biases and I’ll I’ll name mine right here. I I am ha having studied this conflict, ad nauseum, taught it, traveled the region, not just, you know, this this part, but all over.
⁓ from one end to the other. I I have a particular view about the history, and I do think history matters. It was one of the things that I I th I thought was really lacking in the presentation that as I heard it on the podcast. The book may may provide something very different, but the history to the extent it was even mentioned was so ⁓ sloppy, ⁓ I would say.
That ⁓ it it just doesn’t, it gives you no context for for where we are today. My view of the history, and I’ll just give you the the the cliff notes to get to to get to the answer to your question, is that Jews began coming to this land in the 1880s, a little more in the 1890s, a little more in the 1900s, et cetera, et cetera.
And they came because they had been convinced by our ancestors, Mr. Dru Johnson, Dr. Dru Johnson, Christians, that they didn’t have a place in Europe. That Europe did not want them. They were never going to be equal, whether they you know, abandoned their Judaism or kept it hidden, right? There was always this stigma around them.
And in the at the height of the nationalist movement, when the Scots were becoming Scottish and everybody’s, you know, the Greeks are becoming Greek and the Jews kind of some s percentage of the Jews, a small percentage, looked around and thought, well, what are we chop liver? Like we’re also a people. We’re one of the oldest recorded and continuously documented peoples in history. Like, why don’t why haven’t why don’t we have this? Why have we ever thought about going back to our land and just being normal instead of being these interlopers, these gypsies all over the world?
Dru Johnson (27:20)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (27:36)
And so they started coming back. And the feeling was there was actually a deep, and I’ve studied Hebrew literature from around this time. And I can tell you that I actually read a big long paper once called Semites in the Raw, where I documented the ways in which the first Zionists so romanticized and even idolized the Arabs they found in the land that they they emulated them, they dressed like them, they ate like them, they adopted their language. They were very much seeing.
What we call Palestinians now, as like what they could have been if only they hadn’t been exiled. And so they thought a Semitic people speaking a Semitic language, living this authentically rooted Semitic life, like I want to be them. You know, they start riding horses, they’re they’re just carting their whole European heritage, j stopping speaking Yiddish. And that was the feeling. Not only did they not hate Palestinians, they were really into them. And I mean you could just read the sources, right? But
And I’ll fast forward here. I won’t give you a whole history thing, but this basically what happened was over a period of years, if inflection point, first one, of course, being World War One, that that whole situation changed. And the Arabs, ⁓ even those who had been welcoming, began to change, right? They saw that these Jews are gonna keep coming, they wanna really, they really wanna live here.
They want to speak their language and the whole culture, the whole society is going to change. And there was a massive reaction against it. 1920, first riots, 1921, 1929, 1936. And slowly over a period of years, starting then, but you know, most recently, ending in in October 7, 2023, more and more and more and more Jewish settlers, you could say, living in the in this land.
Realize that well, we’re not welcome here either, right? These the the Christians here, the Muslims here, they also don’t want us, right? So nobody wants us. We have nowhere else to go. Ainlan we ewetzach, right? We don’t have another land. This is it. This is the last stop. So we have to protect ourselves. And there were many attempts to try to make peace, to try to talk with the Arabs, states around them, some of them more open than others, notably the Kingdom of Jordan.
being at the top of that list, but it was a it was a process, right? So that, you know, now if you walk around the streets of Israel and you ask a Jewish Israeli, you know, questions about Palestinians, the majority will say, no, they just want to kill us. There there’s no possibility of peace. But it took a long time ⁓ for them to get there. And I think that
Telling history that way is very different from this more generic kind of history that doesn’t take into account the psychological factor. Having said that, now I’ll I’ll give you the other perspective, you could imagine being an Arab, Christian or Muslim, living in the land when all of these Jews are showing up, right? And they’re bringing technology, they have money, they have connections in Europe that you don’t have. And it’s it’s disorienting, right? I mean, it’s like, you know.
immigration here in the United States. It it it freaks people out. And I think that, you know, I as much as I see history in the way that I see it, I if I want to put myself in the shoes of of those Arabs, I I c I can understand, right? They see this as a foreign and and maybe hostile element that is trying to subvert
Dru Johnson (30:55)
As well.
Robert Nicholson (31:21)
its own culture. I think the reaction was entirely out of proportion. mainly because some people on the on the Arab side hijacked ⁓ leadership over that situation. But nevertheless, I I I get it, right? I understand that that was a massive paradigm shift in, you know, daily life in in the Ottoman Empire, ⁓ Palestine. So that that’s and that’s the
That’s where the fear comes from, right? There’s always a fear of what are their intentions. Okay, we let down our guard a little bit, we take a step toward peace. What are they gonna do? Are they gonna are they gonna hit us when we’re when we’re not looking? ⁓ or if if we do something in good faith, will they do something of good faith? That was happening for a while in the nineties. People thought things were on track, and ⁓ it was derailed. And I think, you know, if you ask me.
Dru Johnson (32:11)
Exactly.
Robert Nicholson (32:19)
what you asked me. Like, how do you basically, if I’m hearing you right, you’re asking like, how do you break the cycle? I would say that somebody needs to a leader. It’s a leadership question always. Somebody needs to stand up and break the cycle. And I and and now I’m gonna lay the burden at the feet of the weak of the seemingly weaker party. And this is very much in the in the in the face I think of most people who would advocate for
Dru Johnson (32:24)
Right.
Robert Nicholson (32:47)
For the Palestinian side, which is to say that I believe that if a Palestinian leader emerged tomorrow, who, you know, didn’t not waving the Israeli flag, let’s let’s not be silly and and superficial about this, but said, listen, mistakes were made on both sides. And we’re we admit that we’ve got some some fault here. But you know what? Tomorrow’s a new day.
And we are going to begin taking steps, starting with these, you know, three things, concrete things, to show in good faith that that we are different. I think the reaction from the Israeli side would be tremendous because there is nothing that Israelis want more than for all of this to just stop or at least calm down, right? They don’t need love from Palestinians, they don’t need Zionism, they just want to.
Coexist. There are a minority of people, and that minority’s grown who’ve become quite militant, right? We see what’s happening in the West Bank over the last few, you know, last few months, last few years. And those people exist, but they are vastly outnumbered by the rest of Israeli Jews who would love to see that kind of Palestinian leader emerge.
Dru Johnson (34:08)
⁓ I tend to believe that story that Israelis would be very, very happy to go in that direction. ⁓ I can imagine some hesitance, like we’ve been here before, ⁓ you know, ⁓ with various Israeli leaders before who were willing to take absorb the shock. ⁓ how would Palestinian like, you know, on the ground, percentage wise, how many Palestinians do you think are actually gonna go? Let’s assume it’s a strong leader.
Who has a clear vision, has a network, has some international help, you know, ⁓ all all the things that you would want in place. How likely do you think that Palestinians are going to be to go along with that and not just, you know, and the more milit the militant wing of ⁓ of these Palestinian organizations, these ⁓ jihadist organizations, aren’t they just gonna derail that again? And aren’t Israelis just gonna go, ⁓ we tried.
Robert Nicholson (35:04)
Great question. Great, great question. Because it it effectively is the history of the last 30 years of the conflict. ⁓ again, weighing the scales in the favor of the Palestinian people. There was, you know, I don’t know the numbers off the top of my head, but a sizable percentage of Palestinians who were very happy that the Oslo peace process was happening and looked forward to the day there would be these two states living at peace side by side and all of that. And of course it was it was derailed.
I think and this is where the the whole posture of, you know, I think one of the authors of this book talked about himself as a radical pacifist. This is where all of that, something I hear a lot from from Palestinian Christian advocates, kind of runs into reality because I I’m not a pacifist. You know, I have a I think a v a pretty nuanced view of how violence
you know, can be understood, thought about from a from a Christian perspective, we’ll we’ll put that aside. Suffice it to say that this Palestinian leader we speak of, the man, you know, the man we want, may he, may he be out there even now, right? Preparing to emerge onto the stage of history. This person will have to use violence to curtail, degrade, and ultimately stop.
Those people who are hardwired to derail any attempts at peace. Hamas, obviously, first of all, but not only, right? Unfortunately, it’s not, you know, one or two percent of Palestinians in the streets who support that kind of that kind of Palestinian national movement. It’s it’s a sizable percentage. And there is going to be a need to gain monopoly of violence over the bad guys in order to.
kind of put them back in their pen, you know, craft a narrative that that bring, you know, a kind of what’s the word? ⁓ what’d they do? Amnesty, amnesty, like a kind of, you know, put those people back in their pen and extend, you know, create a narrative, create a movement that can accept all of those people who may have previously supported that, but, but are now ready to to turn a new leaf.
Dru Johnson (37:09)
yeah.
Robert Nicholson (37:27)
And that’s hard to to think about, I think, for many Christians, that the path to peace may first, you know, run through violence. But the only other alternative is for Israelis to stop those people. And of course, everybody on the Palestinian side is is very angry at that. Why are Israeli soldiers and police coming into Palestinian villages and the Palestinian security forces need to ⁓ imp increase
their cooperation with Israel. They already cooperate with Israel. It’s sort of like the dirty little secret of of all of this is that there’s even now still fairly tight coordination between the IDF and the Palestinian security forces in the West Bank. And that needs to improve and bad guys need to be stopped, right? It doesn’t work if all the good guys ⁓ have no weapons and the bad guys have them all. Right. It just it
I I I’m tempted to say in this part of the world, but I think that’s probably in every part of the world, right? It’s just the way it is. And I think that that person would need to be strong. They can’t be Gandhi. That’s not gonna work here, right? They need to be a strong leader, ⁓ somebody who has respect in the refugee camps, right? That who has respect among the who even even among ⁓ Muslim radicals.
Dru Johnson (38:25)
Yeah. Hmm.
Robert Nicholson (38:50)
has respect, known as somebody who’s strong and determined and well connected and able to deliver on promises, right? There such people do exist, but they’re they’re usually not the people brought out front. ⁓ if that person emerged and Israelis saw basically, how can I put this? If Israelis saw someone on the Palestinian side who was saying and doing the right things vis-a-vis peace, right? Initiating or reinitiating that that process,
And this is crucial, was was basically dealing with his own spoilers. Israelis would let down their guard promptly, right? That’s what they’re willing to see. The big critique against the current president of the Palestinian Authority is that while he’s certainly better than than Hamas, right, he’s not out there for the most part advocating you know, for for for for violence, although he doesn’t do enough to to discredit it. He
He’s always kind of got one foot in that camp, right? And he’s tolerated the use of, you know, tax money to fund the families of Palestinian terrorists who are now in prison or who have died, you know, at the hands of Israelis, et cetera, et cetera. Israelis see that and they’re like, Okay, so you’re saying something that sounds good, but in reality you’re you’re like you’re just you you’re tolerating all these bad guys in your camp. And so long as you do, this isn’t gonna work. So
Dru Johnson (39:52)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (40:18)
We need a Palestinian leader who’s strong, who’s tough, who’s willing to deal with those people. And I think, you know, there’s this whole idea, ⁓ maybe it’s Orientalist in nature, but I’ve seen it borne out in practice, this idea of the strong horse, right? People back the strong horse. Maybe not in the beginning, but someone who comes out and shows themselves strong, who shows themselves able to deliver. Suddenly, people who may have, you know, formerly been critics.
put their criticism away and say, All right, well I’ll give this guy a try. I do think that would s that would yield ⁓ result b on both sides of the green line.
Dru Johnson (40:59)
So un into that in that vision, ⁓ peace with Israel is really going to war at home, which is gonna which is gonna take quite a network, ⁓ a lot of trust amongst your people. It does seem almost impossible. Yeah.
Robert Nicholson (41:13)
Let me can I
can I I wanna so the first step is is not violent at all, which is crafting a new narrative. Right? So what is a post-conflipal? What does it look like? I to this day, Dru, and I’ve been in every room, I’ve met Mahmoud Abbas, I’ve was on a WhatsApp texting basis with the former PLO negotiator Saabar Akat. He’s now passed away.
Dru Johnson (41:21)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (41:40)
⁓ I’ve met ⁓ Mohammed Shaye, I’ve met a lot of people over there. I’ve spent many times, many, many hours in these different rooms and listening to never once have I heard a affirmative, positive, you know, prosperity-based vision for what a post-peace, post-normalization Palestine would look like. What would it do? What how would it grow? What was its
Economic plan to become the new Singapore, you know, whatever. I’ve never, ever heard it, ever. And even when I ask a question, well, what happens after? It’s it’s it’s well, you know, we can’t we can’t get there. There’s no there’s no the Zionists are in the way. It’s like, okay, so I understand you’re in the middle of a conflict, it’s hard to see, but the first step for that leader, it’s not just to, you know, discipline the baddies, it’s to tell a new story.
Right? This isn’t all that defines us as Palestinians, is that the Jews are mean. Like that that can’t be the story. Because if you make peace with the Jews, then who are we? What is what does it mean to be a Palestinian? What is Palestine contributing to the community of nations? I I think that that to me is crucial. It’s it’s more important than than even
The you know, the monopoly of violence, because you can’t even get there if you’re not telling a better story. Like, inspire us, inspire your people, inspire Israelis, inspire me. I wanna be inspired. I’m desperate to be inspired. I have not yet been inspired, sadly. So I think that it’s it’s true. There’s like a kind of what you said, like a l like a civil war component to it, at least for a little while. But but I don’t think
I think with the right leadership and the right narrative, that war may not be as devastating as it sounds.
Dru Johnson (43:33)
Hmm. ⁓ and on Israeli side, ⁓ do they need a better narrative as well?
Robert Nicholson (43:43)
I think, yes. I think Israelis.
It’s a very interesting moment, right? You kind of
Catching me in the middle of the Copernican revolution and asking me, you know, well, what’s gonna happen tomorrow? It’s it’s it’s October seventh was a dramatic change, right? We we’ve talked about some of the trends that were already in place on both sides. This was obviously a huge inflection point. ⁓
One of the things that has seems to have gone by the wayside for now on the Israeli side is the idea that look, even with bad guys who are sworn to our destruction based on their nationalism, based on what Allah told them or they think they he told them, even with them, like we can we can live. They stay on you s you stay on your side of the yard or in your yard. I stay in my yard, we’ll be fine.
That was actually for all of the talk about Benjamin Netanyahu being this ⁓ warmonger. The big critique of him in Israel is that he is anything but he was essentially, I don’t want to say this too strongly, but he was more or less propping up Hamas in Gaza. Or, like, let’s say he was going out of his way to tolerate this Islamic.
Terrorist group controlling this piece of territory on Israel’s border, right? It was, he was working with Qatar to facilitate ⁓ f you know, financial support for Hamas. He was, he was, you know, every now and then when when Hamas would launch a barrage of rockets, he would, you know, he’d tell the IDF, hit him back. That’s the way it works. But by and large, the the feeling among him and among most Israelis was: look, there’s these people in the Middle East.
Who, for their own reasons, are never, ever, ever going to accept us, never going to make peace. It is what it is. We just need to be really good in a technical sense at protecting our borders and making sure that those people stay in their yard. And by the way, for a long time that worked. And functionally, what that meant is that Israel could even live with Hamas, but Hamas punctured that whole.
idea so that now Israelis of all kinds, left-wing Israelis, are convinced that we cannot allow these people, at the very least, to be on our borders. But ideally, ⁓ they should be pushed back as far as possible. And that’s why you’ve seen not only a response to October 7th in Gaza, but also in Lebanon, also in Syria, also in Iran, right? There’s this feeling now it’s changed. Is Israel’s not
In the mood to just sort of live and let live because these people, if they have this thing, this thing in their hearts, it may sit dormant for a while, but eventually they’re gonna act on it and they’re gonna catch us with our pants down and we’re gonna die. Like our kids, our wives, they’re they’re gonna die. And so Israelis, you know, are telling themselves a story now that I fear is it’s a bit of a myth, right? The myth being that they can.
stop this, they can fix it, they can make sure that these people never again strike them, you know, when they’re when they’re not expecting it. Because of course, it’s impossible, right? You can you can do better. But in some ways the these wars, I mean we’re seeing evidence of this. While while I’m completely, you know, in principle
in support of of what Israel’s done since October 7th. I’m not talking about the details. I’m talking about the response Israel made. I don’t know how it could Israel could have had another response. But it’s, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu said this what was the story he was telling after October 7th? We were, we were attacked in a brutal, grisly fashion, and we are going to strike back and we are going to have total victory. Total victory. It’s not possible.
Right. And what’s going to happen is the disparity between that promise and reality is going to grow and grow so that until Israelis also become deeply frustrated with their inability to change their situation as it is. The fact of the matter is there’s a lot of radicalism in this part of the world. People are going to keep hating the Jews, keep trying to destroy Israel, and to some extent, Israelis just need to find a new equilibrium. Right? There’s not going to be
this total victory, sadly. And you see what’s happening in Israel, just people I know, friends of mine, like they’re going, I’ll say this and then I’ll stop. I know I’m going off here, but I I I feel some kind of obligation, Dru, to like channel the Israeli perspective because it’s almost always not even talking about your your previous guest, but it’s it’s become so caricatured and so generic and nobody it’s like nobody actually knows these people.
And the people I know are exhausted, exhaust physically exhausted. Years of fighting. They themselves, their kids, their their brothers, their sisters, their cousins, their neighbors, their kids are exhausted, right? And this is after COVID. Everything those kids went through during COVID. They feel like everybody hates them now more than ever. Not even just in the Islamic world, now in in Europe. And even Donald Trump himself, who they were hoping was going to, you know, defend them from all this. And there’s this feeling that they
They fought and fought and fought. They feel like they’re really no better off than they were at the beginning or or not not better off enough to really put an end to this whole thing. And they don’t know what to do. They don’t know where to turn. The story has hit a dead end for the t you know, as we’re recording this now. And there is a need for for new leadership, I think. You know, there’s an election this year. I think ⁓ Benjamin Netanyahu is ⁓
Is misunderstood to a large extent. I actually have ⁓ I have a podcast called Hebraica. I have an episode that went up today, ⁓ June 30th, called Bibi Jesus and Genghis Khan, where I I actually try to get into Bibi’s head a bit. I think he’s he’s just people think things about Bibi that are not true. But look, he’s been around for a long time, and personally I think it’s it’s time he he he steps aside. Thank you for your service. I think the Israeli people, large perspective.
proportion portions of them feel that way. We’ll see what happens at the polls. It’s up to Israelis in the end. But I do think that s like the same thing on on the Israeli side. I think a new leader needs to come out with, you know, a new story and try to move things into the next chapter. Right. We can’t be in a post October seventh world forever. We need to be in a pre whatever comes next world. And
Waiting to see who who will stand up in Israel to try to outline what that is, what that looks like, what that means, right? ⁓ and that’s that’s ⁓ it’s a difficult thing right now.
Dru Johnson (51:09)
Hmm. I I think that that’s very helpful to begin to get our heads around the the narratives that are ⁓ dominating in this part of the world. Let’s go pre October seventh for a second and think about the, you know, in some ways the the conversation that I had with ⁓ Daniel Bannoura and Bruce Fisk we could have had it before October seventh, and I think they’re
there the things they were saying at least in that conversation would have still been the same. what are the big points of agitation here? I mean we talked about I I heard the terms occupation, colonialism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, very extreme ⁓ terms when I pushed Daniel Bannoura on, you know, whether Hamas and Israel were were really apples into apples comparison.
He said, Yes, maybe Israel is worse, maybe, you know, but he’ll take equal. so why why do you suppose we heard some of the reasons he said that. What why do you think people might think that Israel is, you know, in some ways is colonialist, almost de you know, from a Christian view, like a demonic government that is hell bent on oppressing the people around them?
Robert Nicholson (52:32)
Well, the real the real answer, Dru, is I actually don’t know the answer to that because I just don’t see it that way, like in fundamental terms. But I w I let me weigh the scales, you know, in that direction. I think that well, there’s yeah, there was a couple things that that ⁓ one of one of your guests said that just frankly kind of shocked me. ⁓ one was his, you know, at best equating Israel and Hamas, at worst seeming to say
As you just said, Israel’s worse and pretty much like, well, can you blame Hamas? By the way, that’s a very common that he’s not unrepresentative. That’s a very common view. ⁓ there was this character. Right. Right, right, exactly. Right. You set up shop in my yard so I go over and kill your wife. Like, well, can you blame me? ⁓ yeah, I I think I can blame you, actually. ⁓ there was that. There was the
Dru Johnson (53:13)
Like Hamas is just the natural outgrowth of of the occupation, yeah.
Robert Nicholson (53:31)
description of Zionism, I mean it was like every buzzword you can think of, yeah, colonial, imperial, and orientalist and ⁓ it’s just not true. Like fund like historically, just you know, based on text and and a and and actual events, Zionism is the movement for Jewish national self-determination in the Jewish homeland. Literally that. People didn’t even
at the beginning know whether they wanted a country, right? That that was litigated for decades until it became clear that they had to do that in order to protect themselves in the land. There was an ongoing dispute from eighteen eighty until the twenties and thirties. Sorry.
Dru Johnson (54:12)
Can I can I double double check what you’re saying here? Sorry.
Sorry. when you say they didn’t even there were there was a dispute about whether they won in the nation, you’re saying they they wanted to be in the homeland, they wanted to have the right to kind of live their lives. The question is whether they needed to establish a nation in order to build an army to do that. And that was litigated. That’s what you’re saying. Okay. Just making sure we’re on the same page. Okay.
Robert Nicholson (54:32)
One hundred percent. Correct. Yeah. And
a deep and longstanding ongoing debate between several major camps within Zionism about well, what’s the end goal of this movement? Are we trying to build a state? That that came, you know, Theodore Herzl became famous for proposing that, but at best he didn’t come around until eighteen ninety-six, eighteen ninety-five. And that wasn’t the y you know, the the stated purpose of the of the official Zionist movement for for years afterward. Years after.
And even then, even when it became, there was still large ⁓ camp, a large camp that dissented from that and said, No, it’s it became the the only conceivable path, right? That look, we have to defend ourselves. The only way to do that is with arms. The only way to do that was in the structure of some kind of state. So, you know, at the beginning, for decades, decades actually, Zionism was a law abiding, property buying movement.
Right, that proceeded in proportion to the amount of land that Jews coming from Europe could buy in good faith through negotiation and you know, lots of handshakes and and tea, no doubt, with Arab property owners. Right. That that was that was actually what happened with Zion. People think Zion is like Israel emerged in nineteen forty-eight because of the Holocaust. It’s just not the history. So that that just you know, that’s where the historical thing really
Kind of bothers me when I hear people just describe it in in like these cursory ways. But ⁓ I think that over time it did, you know, Zionism has become has basically been a series of responses to kind of outside influences. Jews have, you know, their main thing is to protect Jews in their homeland, to live a fully authentic Jewish life, the way that their ancestors had. But
Pragmatically, as Arabs did what they did, the British did what they did, et cetera, et cetera. The movement kind of evolved to fit the circumstances. That’s my understanding of the history. But I mean, your question, I mean, I want to make sure I answer the question that you’re asking. So maybe, you know, hone it a little more so I don’t, you know, give you a full lecture here, Dru.
Dru Johnson (56:55)
No well and I I appreciate the history. I guess the you know, y even the issue of Zionism, right? That th that hegemony is required. the issue of Jewish supremacy was raised at the end. ⁓ and that this is colonialist, and of course I pushed back and said, like, look, clon colonialism like goes back to the Arab empires and prior to that as well, right? Like ⁓ like every nobody’s from this land anymore. Everybody has taken over this land. So where do we start the timeline of
Of ⁓ colonialism is difficult to say. But that if there is a Jewish supremacy, right? So in the Jewish state today, Zionism has grown into many different things. If if it if it has become something that is hegemonic, that is supremacist, that does create a caste system or a class system of a certain way in a certain way, ⁓ intentionally and like institutionally. ⁓ I mean, I think that issue, we didn’t get into it, but
I is it a Jewish supremacist state or is it not?
Robert Nicholson (57:58)
It’s a Jewish state. And it I you c I guess you could say privileges Jewishness in the same way Ireland privileges Irishness and Italy privileges Italianness, right? You could go to Italy and and build your house somewhere and say, What’s your problem? Why are you so focused on Italian pride? And they would be very justified in telling you.
I’m sorry, ⁓ Dr. Johnson. This is the state of the Italians. That’s kind of why we did this whole thing. And that’s Israel. Israel’s no different from virtually any other state. By the way, just read the Palestine basic law. People never do this because it’s too technical, but there is a proto-constitution right now. You could go find it online, that explains to you exactly what the state of Palestine will be, or if you believe some.
⁓ is already and it is an Arab state, a Palestinian state, a a state that privileges Islam and Islamic law, right? And that makes anybody who doesn’t fit those different categories by you know definition a a second class citizen, one could say. Personally, I actually don’t have a problem with a Palestine that privileges Arab Palestinian identity.
And the privileges the Arabic language and that privileges the vast majority, like 98% of its inhabitants’ religion, which is Islam. Okay, like that’s pretty much, you know, what we’re doing out here with these with these nation states. America is this weird outlier. Most countries do that. So if you’re talking about the fact that Israelis prioritize Jewishness and Hebrew, and like I don’t know why that’s even worth talking about. That’s
Pretty normal. If you’re saying that there is a policy within the state of Israel to actively oppress, suppress, minimize, marginalize non-Jews, I don’t see that. I do see ⁓ certain politicians who represent certain parties.
Dru Johnson (59:54)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (1:00:19)
Who who talk in those terms and who, if you know, if you gave them the keys to the whole thing, they probably would try to just set up, you know, Itamar Ben Gvir, Betzelal Schmutzrich, right? These are the the the boogeyman at present. and unfortunately, what the Palestinians have done and those who support them over the last few years have only empowered those guys, right? They’re just they’re just sitting back and kind of pointing to the statements coming out of.
Dru Johnson (1:00:24)
Right. It tomar Ben Gavir being the most famous of them.
Robert Nicholson (1:00:47)
Palestinian street, the Arab world, and kind of with a smug look on their face saying, see, these Palestinians, they’re not, they’re not ready for peace. They’re just gonna kill us as soon as we let our guard down. Like, if you want to empower the Ben Gvirs, like keep doing what you’re doing. That is not the majority of Israelis. That is not the the Israeli state as it stands today. I just don’t the the big question is the West Bank, right? Let’s put aside Gaza because of it it’s
Let’s say in flux. We don’t know what’s happening there or what’s going to happen. But the big question is the West Bank. Whether the West Bank? Will it become part of a future Palestinian state? Or will it become just another part of one giant state, which is kind of where ⁓ a lot of Jews are at and Palestinians, but for very different reasons and with very different images in mind? To the extent that that zone, the West Bank, the Judean Samaria.
as as Hebrew speakers call it, is a gray zone, is like this weird thing in international law that isn’t that and isn’t this. It is a problem, right? The ongoing murkiness of the West Bank is a huge problem. You know, questions of rule of law and who’s making the rules and to what extent are Palestinians calling shots and and where, et cetera, et cetera.
Dru Johnson (1:01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (1:02:12)
That’s really the crux of the issue. And if you’re talking about that, then you’re talking about an Israeli state that’s not fully in control, but de facto pretty much in control, with a few exceptions, and trying to protect Jews who are mostly living peacefully, but increasingly in small but growing numbers, becoming desperate themselves and lashing out at the Palestinians around them. And that’s a big, that’s a big issue.
Dru Johnson (1:02:40)
Yeah. ⁓ and you’re talking about some of the settler violence that’s going on, among other things, that as they pointed out, has always been an issue. ⁓ but it is increasing right now. They could you just enumerate a few ways in which if I’m an Arab Israeli, ⁓ Palestinian, how am I treated differently? Maybe okay, so the state has no policy against Arab Israelis who are Christian or ⁓ Muslim. ⁓ but are there
palpable ways in which I would feel that I w was being treated differently if I ⁓ lived in Israel as a Muslim Palestinian or Christian.
Robert Nicholson (1:03:19)
Yeah,
I think that’s a good question, right? So and some of this is very subjective. I mean, think of yourself living in Italy, right? Maybe you don’t maybe you speak some Italian but not great. You’re you’re, you know, visibly maybe not like other people. They kind of know that you’re part of a minority community of non-Italians who live in the country. You might walk around feeling like these people hate me, right? They they they don’t see me as equal. They don’t they don’t see me as actually part of the fabric of this country.
And in some cases you’d you’d be right, but in a lot of cases you might be over exaggerating the way in which you’re perceived in the eyes of the people around you. I think if you if you are part of the twenty percent or so of non Jews who live in Israel proper, right? Most of most of which is isn’t is Arabic speaking.
You would be conscious of the fact that you are an Arab. You are not Jewish. You grew up in your house speaking Arabic. Maybe by now you’ve mastered Hebrew and even speak it without an accent. and maybe you you are one of those people who actually wants to more and more integrate with the country, which by this is never ever talked about. Huge numbers of Israeli ⁓ citizens, Arabic-speaking Israeli citizens, are are.
Are very much doing in practice with their feet and with their lives, the opposite of what people think they’re doing. They’re actually very closely connected with the state. They’re part of Israeli society. They’re seen as such. They’re commentators on TV shows. They have their own radio stations. They have their like there’s a whole ecosystem of Arabic Israel that nobody knows about, and they wouldn’t if they’re not there.
Lots of people take that track. They’re like, I’m gonna become more Italian. I’m gonna just assimilate, and who knows, maybe in a couple generations my kids will be indistinguishable. But lots of people don’t feel that way. They feel like they’re a a non-entity. And they and it and it’s very it’s like in their daily life, you know. They may, you know, I will I will say this too, as well. Like we and we in America have a hard time with this, but Israel, like.
the rest of the Near East is very segregated, right? By and large, Arabs live in Arab towns, Jews live in Jewish towns, right? And it even gets more specific than that, right? Bedouin Arabs live in Bedouin Arab town. I could go on and on. People self-select in the Middle East, it’s very accepted and even like preferred. They look at our system and think, well, what who are you guys? What do you stand for? You just all mix and match or just
Doesn’t matter where you come from or who your family is. And that from the outside looks bad from an American perspective. Like, well, wait, these these Arabs are living in their own towns and and but that’s kind of the way the way it works there. But it it cr it keeps that that ⁓ that gap, that cultural gap in intact and sometimes for generations, right? So you’ll meet an Israeli Jew, let’s say living in Tel Aviv, super modern.
Dru Johnson (1:06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (1:06:27)
Right, super Democrat, ⁓ progressive, even, right? Like more liberal than anybody we know. Who’s who’s never actually sat down and had a coffee with an Arab, right? Even if they’re like somehow like pro Arab, they’re just people don’t meet each other as much. And that and that creates a lot of thoughts, like, well, what do they think of me? And on and all of that. And of course, you do have those voices in Israel, and they’re and they’ve become louder.
Who are saying things that that insinuate that Arabs are are not quite, you know, the equal to ⁓ to the rest of Israel. But I if you look at it historically, and it’s so important to look at this conflict not through a straw, right? And actually look at the long sweep of this, that that’s just not the default f for most Israeli Jews. Most Israeli Jews are fascinated by by Arabs, by Arab culture. It’s interesting. There was a in the course of the last
I don’t know, five years, there is a ⁓ an Alawite village in in the extreme north of Israel that has now basically been it kind of straddles the border, and it’s now part of it’s it’s now kind of under Israeli control. And as soon as it was possible, you had Israeli Jews just flocking up there to figure out like who are these people? What’s their culture? What’s their food? What do they believe? And that curiosity to me is much more the default.
Than not. But if you’re an Israeli Arab, there is a feeling that, okay, to really be part of this state, I need to learn Hebrew. For for some of them and a growing number of Christians, I should probably join the army, right? Because when I go to interview for a job, they’ll ask me, like, did you serve and or did you do national service, the non military equivalent, or and where did you do it? And if you’re not doing those things, you’re like, you’re kind of you’re outside the mainstream. And that’s and that could be very isolating.
Dru Johnson (1:08:03)
Right.
Robert Nicholson (1:08:23)
You know, so there’s there’s it’s partially true and and partially not, I would say.
Dru Johnson (1:08:28)
Yeah, and what about things like I I’m thinking also things just like traveling between the West Bank and and ⁓ or at the airport, trying trying to travel out of the country. I’ve heard ⁓ Palestinian Israelis talk about it’s way more difficult and there are like structural issues that they have to face that nobody else has to.
Robert Nicholson (1:08:49)
In the West Bank, definitely. Right. Getting around in the West Bank is is a challenge. it’s again, it’s this weird gray zone overlapping legal and military jurisdictions. It’s it’s a boondoggle, no doubt. ⁓ if you live in the West Bank, again, I always try to isolate that is a different it’s like a different set of rules. ⁓ and and we may hate that, but it is. It’s you can’t conflate what’s the situation in the West Bank with what’s happening in
like the h the rest of the whole land. ⁓ at the airport, yeah. Like I’ll tell you from my own experience, this is, you know, me not being anywhere close to being Palestinian or Arab for a long time because I’ve traveled, like I said, across the Middle East. And before I had multiple passports, I I would ⁓ I had stamps in my passport from Iraq or, you know, Lebanon. Let’s just say that I was detained for for hours, no matter how many times I went to Israel, I was, you know, put in that little room.
while they whatever they did ran down my background or whatever, answered questions. So I’m certain that if you are ⁓ especially a Palestinian Arab and not an Israeli Arab, that you you’re getting that and more, right? If you’re an Israeli Arab, probably also, right? And I and not even probably I know I know that that’s true. So you have to ask yourself again, and I’m not gonna go off on this again, but is
Was this something Israelis invented because they have some kind of problem with Arabs? Or was there some kind of rationale for doing so that had to do with national security? Well, I’m sure you know what my answer to that would be. People say maybe it goes too far, it’s too intrusive. I don’t know, maybe, but this these things did not emerge in a vacuum, right? I don’t think Israelis are interested in spending more resources to to check into the background of of people.
Dru Johnson (1:10:37)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (1:10:45)
of of Arab descent. I I just don’t I don’t think that’s true. The fact of the matter is when Israel when Israelis die in political violence, the person who kills them is is often ⁓ an Arab. It’s just it it’s an objective fact. And Israelis know that and they’ve built a system that ⁓ that that that sort of screens for that. It’s it’s a hard truth and and I you know I don’t know enough details to know if it’s too far or not far enough.
I can understand how you know, if they even feel a piece of what I’m feeling and I’m sure they feel more, an Israeli Arab at the airport would say, What the heck? I’m a citizen here. Why why why why why are you putting me in this room? Like I’ve been living here my whole life.
Dru Johnson (1:11:32)
Yeah. And and I’ve been strip searched at the airport before and ⁓ I’ve sat through very long, very long interrogations. I don’t know what the the right word for it is. So yeah, it is it it is a lot and ⁓ but yeah, I’ve ⁓ I’ve often felt like, yeah, there’s probably a good reason why they’re going hard this time and last time they just kind of waved me through, right? ⁓
Robert Nicholson (1:11:46)
It’s a lot.
I will say there’s another this is not close to being the same thing. So I don’t want to equate it, but just to give you an example, but probably it’s the reason you were stopped is that military age males, right, traveling alone, boom, you’re going in the other line and you’re gonna be painstakingly surged from top to bottom. And I’m I’m mad every time. If you caught me in that moment, I’d be extremely anti Israel. pretty much every time kidding. but it’s that like
Dru Johnson (1:12:09)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Nicholson (1:12:22)
There’s a reason. Military age males traveling alone tend to be sketchy, present company included.
Dru Johnson (1:12:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say that’s a universal universal rule. We’ve all been there. ⁓ I wanna end this conversation thinking more about the the book that they published, which again I think is worth looking at and some of the things they were advocating, ⁓ specifically from a Christian lens. ⁓ so how are Christi why should Christians be interested
Robert Nicholson (1:12:32)
It is. We’ve all been there.
Dru Johnson (1:12:56)
in this area of the world, or should we? ⁓ and then what do you think are some f a fair spectrum of responses that Christians could have to what’s going on in Israel and Palestine?
Robert Nicholson (1:13:09)
Yeah, that’s the big question. I would ⁓ say that for starters, as I said at the top, this is important. This this concerns you, Christian, and it would behoove you to to look a little more closely. Having said that, if you’re going to look closely, look very closely. Do not be satisfied with the slogans.
Do not be satisfied with the potted history of the conflict. If you really want to acquit yourself like a Christian, like the Bereans, right? Who search out the matter ⁓ in search of the truth, then search for truth. Like really dig in, read from multiple perspectives, and always be aware that.
I would say always be very humble. And that’s what I think is missing from virtually all of the so-called Christian conversations on this topic. They tend to be bombastic. They tend to be very chauvinistic. They tend to be, you know, my side is pure and perfect and has done no wrong, right? And to the extent we’ve done any wrong, it’s because somebody else was really bad to us.
it it tends to be very easy. It’s not easy. This conflict is not easy. There’s no quick answer. It’s not like, you know, you’re if you just watch one more YouTube video, there’s gonna be, you know, somebody telling you exactly what’s going on and and who’s at fault and how to fix it. It’s just I’ve been in this conflict up and down, all around. I can tell you.
It’s messy and tangled and ugly and but and also, and this is where the humility comes in, it’s deeply, it’s deeply mysterious. Right? There are what I would say on this is all we have to do is look at scripture and look at the history of you know redemption, to know that there are things that happen in history whose purpose
Whose place in the larger picture aren’t disclosed for years, centuries afterward, right? There are deep and profound things that God is doing in this world that at the time make no sense, at the time provoke deep frustration and despair. And often for those Christians inclined to think that.
God’s not in control, or that we have to kind of grab the reins of history and kind of make it all do what it’s supposed to do, it it can lead to ⁓ a lot of bad things, right? In the name of you know, opposing bad nationalism, we embrace nationalism, you know, the the ugly side. I’m I’m not an anti nationalist, let me be clear. But humility diffuses all of that. I have, I mean, anybody who’s listening to this episode will.
Be aware. I have very clear thoughts about this, about this conflict. And we just scrape the surface. But I’m always aware that I don’t know everything and that God is doing something unique here that has to do with the Jewish people. And because I am called by my Lord and by the Apostle Paul, among others, to care about this people, right? To see them as part of the story.
To not just in a in a like meta historical sense, but as individuals, like actual human beings who find themselves caught up in this maelstrom, I think it’s it’s my duty to understand what their situation is, what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling. Also, to the extent that those feelings are entangled with the feelings of the people around them, be they Christian or non-Christian, I’m also obligated to find out what.
what their story is, like what’s going on over on that side. And doing it always with a little bit of tenuousness, a little bit of caution, right? Knowing that there are there are things that are objectively true, things that should be defended, right? But we’re we’re also human beings, right? And we’re we’re called to to love other people, even when we disagree with them. And we’re always
supposed to believe that God is sovereign over over all of this, right? And and not get frustrated and start, you know, blaming everybody, but but ourselves and be constructive. Like that that’s really what it comes down to. The best way to be constructive in this conflict is to know as much as possible, to hold it loosely, to be humble about it, and to try to whatever tiny, tiny extent you can, to be constructive for the purpose
Of helping these two peoples to be closer to peace. And I think as Christians, and this is the part that a lot of Christians don’t like like to hear, whatever their you know political views are, we are a very small part of this conflict. If you just look at the raw data, this is a Jewish-Muslim conflict, right? You know, talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the lens of Palestinian Christians is like talking about, you know, the
the America Iraq war of two thousand three through the lens of like American Episcopalians. I think the percentages are are about the same. Like it’s a very small, small percentage. We care about them because we’re Christians as as we should, but this is not a Christian conflict. Like we in some ways we don’t have as much standing to, you know, sit there and adjudicate it and and say who’s right and who’s wrong as we as we may think we are. I think we should be
Deeply humble and empathetic, as basically Isaac and Ishmael, if I’m going get, you know, really spiritual here, are working out something that I don’t think any of us fully understand, and something that only God, ⁓ whose outcome God fully knows. And I think that I’m not giving you, you know, a lot of people are asking me, like, well, what do we do? What should we? I’m not giving you any of that. I’m giving you the posture that we need. And I’m not saying I myself always live up to that, but that’s the goal. That’s the aspiration, is to be.
If you’re gonna be, if you’re gonna get into this, take it very, very, very seriously. Watch your words, right? Be ⁓ be aware of your own biases. Be be honest. Be intellectually honest about what’s happening. And don’t buy into these, you know, there’s so much, you know, kind of social media hype and just all of this stuff. Be skeptical of all of it and and and seek God. I really, you know, I have this thing I always say about.
And I’m really saying it to myself, all of us Christians in general, we spend a lot of time talking about God, not a lot of time talking to Him. And I think that people who genuinely seek God, you know, in prayer, repeatedly, frequently, on this topic, will be guided into all truth. I believe that. And even if we’re catching it in glimpses and it’s not all revealed at once, the spirit that God has toward the people.
caught up in this conflict will will will start to take root in our own hearts. And to me, that’s the most important thing we can do. You and I on this podcast or anywhere else, Dru, are not gonna do anything to to change this conflict. Let’s just be honest. The best thing we can do is to be as Christian as possible as we talk about.
Dru Johnson (1:21:04)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah. And I I hear in that answer that kind of a blindly pro Israel Israel can do no wrong because they are God’s people approach is just as unhelpful as the the opposite.
Robert Nicholson (1:21:25)
I mean, look, I I I all you have to do is read one page of the Bible to know that, you know, the Hebrews are the first ones to tell you that we, you know, we haven’t done everything right. I mean, going all the way back to their holiest period. So I don’t think and I don’t think anybody in Israel, there’s no Israeli Jew that’s gonna sit there and tell you that Israel’s perfect, and nor do I. And I think that
Dru Johnson (1:21:32)
Yeah.
Right.
Robert Nicholson (1:21:48)
I understand why Christians take that approach because so much of the world for so much of history has been stacked on the other side that there’s kind of an overcorrection. And look, if you’re gonna overcorrect, I think, you know, do what Jesus did. Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. He wept for Jerusalem. Like if you’re gonna overcorrect, I think I think that’s probably the right way to go. But we’re all humans. Jews are not, you know, like any better, right? There’s a difference.
Dru Johnson (1:21:56)
Mm.
Robert Nicholson (1:22:17)
I sometimes say too that like there’s a difference between Christian Zionism, which is kind of what we’re talking about, and Christian realism. And they both kind of have to live in the same mind. And and I it’s it’s okay to the last thing I’ll say, it’s okay to not agree with an Israeli policy, right? The state of Israel is not holy. And nobody will be more honest about that than people running the state of Israel. It’s not holy. It’s not a holy thing.
Dru Johnson (1:22:45)
Right.
Robert Nicholson (1:22:46)
I think
it’s it’s important insofar as it provides the superstructure for the protection and the flourishing of the Jewish people. That’s why I care about the state. But
If you are going to criticize the state of Israel, do do so do that carefully as well. Don’t ascribe the crimes of some individual Israeli Jew in the West Bank to like the Jews or to Israel. That’s that’s that’s the wrong way to do it. And even even if you did do that, like be empathetic. Like try to weigh the scales in their favor. Maybe the Jews are not out to destroy everybody.
And to persecute Palestinians. It’s it’s possible. And try to get in their head and figure out, like, well, what is going on? I always say, if if I saw critics of Israel, especially Christian critics, I like to, you know, take my own people to task, if if they were saying to me, look, I don’t like what Israel did in Gaza, I don’t like, but they were doing so with the spirit of humility and of concern and of care, genuine.
Like, okay, fine, I get it. We c reasonable people can disagree. Let’s look at the facts. Let’s look at let’s get a commission going or whatever. But it’s it’s so rare to find people so quick to criticize Israel. And I and I suppose it goes on the other side as well, who like have that that posture I was talking about before. And so if if we can keep that, yeah, we could say that people go too far. I think that’s okay. I mean, what we’re are we not human? We not sinned. King David sinned. I do too, you know.
Dru Johnson (1:24:22)
Well, Robert Nicholson, ⁓ your podcast is called Hebraica. There’s quite a few episodes already out where you can listen to him talk more and in depth about these issues. Thank you so much for your wisdom and guidance on this.
Robert Nicholson (1:24:36)
Thank you, Dru. It’s great to be here.
