Dru Johnson (00:00)
Do prisoners deserve the harsh treatment they receive in prison conditions? this week we’re gonna talk to Abby Pasiuk, who is doing her PhD at Oxford on the topic of incarceration and looking at it through a lens of how the biblical authors, specifically the Hebrew Bible, would think about love and justice modern carceral situations.
Her own father was in prison and that’s where she began to develop personal insights into what was going on in the American prison system. And then she interviewed dozens of prisoners to learn even more about some of the things going on there and thinks about what would the biblical authors think about the humanity or inhumanity of that treatment beyond their time being taken away from them. Do not forget to like and subscribe or whatever you’re supposed to do for this channel.
And obviously we will take your money. can give at thebiblicalmind.org slash give or hebraicthought.org slash give. Thank you.
Abigail Pasiuk (01:01)
Yeah, so to start off, I’ll say I had a unique personal situation happening. So when I was in my master’s and I was ⁓ at Fuller Theological Seminary, I was in the final year of my program there. And ⁓ my dad ended up serving time in a federal prison. And as he’s going through that and I’m visiting him,
⁓ I was like, what is this? What is happening? What is justice? What does any of this mean after encountering it? And I thought, how can I put that into…
something exploring within the biblical concepts because I was already thinking about applying for a PhD and I didn’t know what I wanted to like have my proposal on. And so that just launched me into this mindset of something I was genuinely curious about and cared deeply about. And so I just kind of looked at the application form. did everything I needed to do. And I just wrote a proposal based on my personal experience and things I was genuinely interested in.
finding the answers to, which was ⁓ what is love and justice in the specifically the Hebrew Bible and how could we apply that to our modern system ⁓ in a helpful way. And I only applied to Oxford. I think it’s just because it’s Oxford and it sounded fun to apply there. And I wanted to say, ⁓ I at least tried. I had never been there before. I was just a big fan of a of stuff.
Dru Johnson (02:26)
Right.
Could you have been there before?
Okay, he did a cold proposal.
Abigail Pasiuk (02:36)
Yeah, I did.
Dru Johnson (02:37)
Yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (02:37)
yeah, ⁓ no, like so many people. I think I was just a fan of so many people that came out of there. And I did have a professor at Fuller that went to Oxford. so was just Elizabeth Hayes. Yeah, yeah, she’s at, I think she’s still at Fuller. And I also had John Goldingay and I think he graduated from Oxford. So.
Dru Johnson (02:47)
Who was that?
Okay, I don’t know her.
yeah.
He’s still, he’s in
Oxford. Actually, I was tasked with doing a Bible exposition at Wycliffe Hall where I’m working right now. And the week, ⁓ the person before me who had done it was NT Wright, Tom Wright. And then I did it. And then the next week it was John Goldingay. But nobody told me that. And so I just showed up and did my thing and they said, yeah, that sounds kind of like what Tom said last week. And John Goldingay, and I was like, my goodness, you wedge me between Tom Wright and John Goldingay.
Abigail Pasiuk (03:14)
So great.
Dru Johnson (03:29)
I sounded like an idiot up there, yeah. But they were great, yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (03:30)
Oh no,
I like that. No, he was great. those are the two people I used as references for getting in. So yeah, so that was a little bit of exposure to Oxford. I did have conversations with them and asked them questions, but yeah.
Dru Johnson (03:47)
Yeah, because how did you know?
Because there’s a very particular way in which you inquire and apply to British universities. ⁓
Abigail Pasiuk (03:57)
I’m actually glad
you brought that up. So I forgot, and I probably wouldn’t have mentioned this otherwise. My husband has a really dear friend that is just brilliant. He ⁓ has a PhD in physics and he got it at 26 years old. And so he was kind of my go-to of how do you pursue a PhD? What does that look like? And he had applied on, in addition to his PhD to Oxford.
Dru Johnson (04:20)
Okay.
Abigail Pasiuk (04:25)
⁓ and he did get accepted, but he ended up saying no to it just cause he couldn’t make it happen. But I asked, how did you get accepted? What do you think worked? And he kind of said, you know what? Reach out to people you think you would work well with who would supervise you. Tell pitch them kind of very brief idea of what you’re thinking and say, would you be willing to put your name? It can, I put my, your name on my application form as someone who could be a potential supervisor.
Dru Johnson (04:37)
Right. Yep.
Abigail Pasiuk (04:52)
⁓ I have to say, if I’m being honest, it didn’t go awesome. A lot of people either don’t reply or they’re not, they weren’t too friendly. And they’re like, why are you talking to me? But through a series of events, the person I ended up with was Catherine. And somebody said, ⁓ it was just kind of through somebody that left Oxford that would have been a good supervisor pointed me to her. And she was so kind and like, yeah, that sounds great. Put my name down.
Dru Johnson (05:02)
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Abigail Pasiuk (05:23)
⁓ and so I put her in another name down from somebody that actually never replied to me, but I just figured why not. And I, they do say that matters. ⁓ so that was really important advice I got. And, ⁓
Dru Johnson (05:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
it’s kind of the opposite of the American program where you just apply for a PhD program in America or Canada. And here you’re actually applying to study with a particular person. So they want to know, that you’ve talked to this person, the person thinks that your idea is OK, and that they’re willing to supervise. And I will warn all of those who are thinking, like, great, I’m going to email somebody at Oxford. I think you probably shouldn’t do it until you’ve talked to a lot of people and you get that email honed.
hone down really carefully, yeah, because you don’t want to shoot your shot and waste somebody’s time.
Abigail Pasiuk (06:09)
Yeah, and I think don’t give them the whole proposal, right? Like give it a high level, quick, don’t give them this big long email, be respectful of their time, make them want to read the email. And no, think, you the other, I kind of alluded to this, but when you go through all the professors, look at who has aligning interests and don’t just pick somebody because they’re at Oxford. It really does have to do with your research interests. And yeah, it’s funny that
Dru Johnson (06:13)
Right. Yep. Yep.
yeah, absolutely.
Abigail Pasiuk (06:38)
Nobody necessarily tells you that. And so if I didn’t have that friend to talk to, I would not have done that personally. And that probably helps immensely. And then other than that, you are filling out their standard ⁓ application form. And yeah, you just follow the prompts. They’ll let you know what they need. They need written work examples. They need references. ⁓ And then obviously, the connection to a professor is very helpful.
I think I applied in October and then I heard back in February, early February, and I actually had kind of forgotten about it and I didn’t apply anywhere else and that’s really bad advice as well. Don’t always apply to multiple places. The acceptance rate anywhere is not awesome. But I did it because I thought, you know what, it was a lot of work to put together that application and I was…
Dru Johnson (07:23)
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (07:35)
about eight months pregnant at the time. So I was like, you know what? I’m just gonna do one this round. Cause my husband kept encouraging me. He’s like, you should do at least two. But I just, I don’t know at the time I didn’t have it in me and ⁓ I just shoot my shot and thought, we’ll see what happens. I obviously thought it would be a no. And so I was, I was genuinely shocked to get my acceptance letter.
Dru Johnson (07:37)
wow.
Right.
Are you associated with a college there?
Abigail Pasiuk (07:59)
I am at Regents Park. Yeah. So yeah, they assign you to a college. ⁓ It doesn’t necessarily even have to be because of the field of study you’re in. And so I was assigned to a different one, but I got a scholarship through the Love and Religion Project through Paul Fiddes at Regents Park. And so then you have to move to the college where you’re getting your scholarship from.
Dru Johnson (08:01)
Regents Park, okay.
Okay.
So you have dining privileges at Regent’s Park? How is their dining hall?
Abigail Pasiuk (08:27)
I do.
You know, I’ve only gone a couple of times and it was for lunch with Paul and it was great. It’s fine. It’s, I think just any dining hall at Oxford is fun to be in. You definitely feel like you’re getting the Hogwarts type of experience and it’s everything you could imagine it to be. I love it.
Dru Johnson (08:51)
Yeah,
when I first started looking at Oxford with this grant, everybody would talk about like, well, you know, shop around for dining privileges, you know, because you don’t want to just end up anywhere. I kept on thinking, man, they make a really big deal out of this dining privilege. Now I realize it is, it is a, it is a nice privilege when you’re there to have all your meals paid for and to have, you know, good variety of food and healthy food. eat a lot of vegan food. So, okay.
⁓ That gets you into Oxford and then I think many people will know this but not everybody. ⁓ I assume that Oxford is like all the Cambridge and all the other British universities, like you’re not taking classes, you have a seminar that you can attend but you’re just basically working on your writing your thesis or what Americans call a dissertation. Is that correct?
Abigail Pasiuk (09:42)
That is correct. so my understanding is that’s very different from the American and Canadian systems. ⁓
Dru Johnson (09:49)
it’s very different.
Abigail Pasiuk (09:51)
And
I’m being honest, that’s why I wanted to do the UK, because I wanted to avoid all this core classwork again. I just wanted to write. I had an idea of what I wanted to do, and I just wanted to go for it. But ⁓ they definitely support you. So if you feel you need any classes of any help. So I’ve done ⁓ some Hebrew classes at Oxford to help with the language bit. ⁓
she, you know, I could attend criminology, anything that would support. They’re pretty open letting you go and attend. It’s not like you’re going to get graded, but you can participate in class. And ⁓ what I was told early on, and I love to tell people this because this is a very good picture of what it’s like to do ⁓ PhD work in the UK, is my supervisor told me, because you have to, it’s almost like someone says, okay, go write a book. And that’s what you’re tasked with. And so my supervisor told me, she’s like,
Dru Johnson (10:19)
yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (10:44)
You just, you have to picture like you’re wandering in a woodland and you don’t really know which direction you’re going, but you’re still exploring. And I’m like, there is, it is challenging, but I think once you get your core outline and you kind of know the framework of your argument, it’s a lot faster. But that initial taking off phase is you just have to hunker down and know like it is a little bit of wandering around some dead ends, but you’ll get through it.
Dru Johnson (11:10)
Yeah. And all of those dead ends eventually work their way into your thinking in some other spot, even if they’re not in your thesis.
Abigail Pasiuk (11:18)
Absolutely. actually had a very, ⁓ my, the, the shape my dissertation is today is not what my proposal was. It’s not horribly different, but it is, it is different enough. And I think that’s an example of your thinking can, you can go, okay, that’s not going to work, but this is what I learned from all those dead ends. You do always learn something.
Dru Johnson (11:26)
Hmm.
second monograph, started researching on placebos and sacramentology was what I had this idea about placebos being sacramental in some way or a ritual. My final 300 page monograph on rituals had zero conversation about placebos, but I tried it. I went down that path and I’ve since then worked it into some other things because it’s very interesting research.
Abigail Pasiuk (11:55)
you
Dru Johnson (12:03)
But yeah, I actually tell people if your final product looks exactly like your proposal, probably something’s gone wrong, right? ⁓ You should have some variety in there because you should have been steered. The normal encounter with what you’re studying will steer you in different directions. So that’s great to hear. And then people finish their thesis and you defend it. assume Oxford has an internal external defense viva. They call it a viva, which is basically you just.
Abigail Pasiuk (12:10)
That’s good advice.
Yep.
Yeah.
Dru Johnson (12:30)
showing that you actually wrote this and that it’s not stupid, right?
Abigail Pasiuk (12:33)
Yeah, yeah. So Oxford actually has three
different check marks for PhD students. So the first is called the transfer of status. And you’re going to do that about a year or two into the program. It’s like a mini viva. So you have put there two internal examiners. And you do get to pick them. And if they agree, then fantastic. And that’s kind of what happened in my case. And then you just have a ⁓ conversation, just checking your work.
Dru Johnson (12:41)
Mm.
that’s great.
Abigail Pasiuk (13:03)
required an abstracts ⁓ chapter sample in an outline. So at that point, you’re pretty good idea of what you’re doing. And that’s when you go from a probationary status to a full status. And then ⁓ next is a confirmation of status, really similar, but just making sure you’re still like, this is solid and it’s progressing. And then the final is the viva.
Dru Johnson (13:25)
Wow. Okay. It wasn’t that long ago, but back when I did my PhD in St. Andrews, another British university, they had like one check four months in. It’s kind of like, are you like, is this okay? which I don’t think I even ever did. And then you just go defend. ⁓ and we had a guy who went in to defend and got a master’s degree out of it. They just said, we don’t think this is a PhD. So we’re just going to give you a master’s goodbye. so.
Abigail Pasiuk (13:44)
what?
Dru Johnson (13:56)
It’s a very sink or swim system. sounds like they’ve humanized it a little bit ⁓ in the last 20 years.
Abigail Pasiuk (14:02)
Yeah, I think they have some pretty solid checks. if you cannot, if you don’t get past your transfer, it’s for very good reason. And that’s, think they’re going to weed out what happened to that guy. That’s probably going to be weeded out in the first or second check. And it’s funny, my supervisor was like, Hey, it’s not a big deal. It’s just a conversation. It’s a formality, the transfer status. I was like, awesome. So I was super calm. I was relaxed. I was like, this will be great. You can just talk about my project to someone.
Dru Johnson (14:11)
Right.
Right.
Abigail Pasiuk (14:31)
And then after, when I heard I passed, ⁓ I said, hey, Catherine, people keep kind of saying, wow, congratulations, that’s a big deal, but you said it was a formality. And she goes, it’s a really big deal to get past it. And I’m like, why didn’t you tell me? But she’s like, I didn’t want you to panic. But I was like, you know what, that advice served me well, because I was home. But yeah.
Dru Johnson (14:49)
That’s very, very smart, yeah.
And there’s also British understatement in everything as well, right? No, it’s fine, we’re just gonna have a conversation, which does not in any way in British English mean we’re just gonna have a conversation. ⁓ Yeah, and then I…
Abigail Pasiuk (14:57)
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, first.
Dru Johnson (15:08)
I’m sure Oxford is very similar to a lot of British universities where as soon as you come in you haven’t even written anything yet and your supervisor is going right where are you going to publish this right like which which series are you gonna publish this in so excuse me when you think about publishing it a ⁓
Abigail Pasiuk (15:18)
was that?
Dru Johnson (15:27)
What do you think needs to happen? Like, can you envision already what needs to happen between your thesis and then the actual book that you will publish from it? Because I edit, and so I get theses all the time, and I say, this is great, but we need to turn it into a monograph. And they’re like, great, what’s that mean? And then I have to walk into that weird process.
Abigail Pasiuk (15:44)
Great.
Yeah, think I haven’t given it too much thought about the monograph after. She has mentioned what would have to happen if you wanted to turn your dissertation into a monograph. You obviously would have to take down some of the academic jargon and make it more simple. Yeah, and you would also have to pair it back quite a bit. The word count would have to be significantly shorter. So.
Dru Johnson (15:55)
Mm-mm.
Yes. Which is funny.
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (16:12)
I keep that in the back of my mind. don’t think for my project, I feel like that actually wouldn’t be too hard. I have the nature of mine is different because it’s so interdisciplinary. So it’s, you know, it’s a bit of ⁓ criminology and biblical studies and theology. So ⁓ I think there is some public policy and public facing content that might be of more interest for sure. Yeah.
Dru Johnson (16:37)
⁓
And there’s ever growing conversation around incarceration in the United States, at least. ⁓ I probably asked you this, but you did say you’ve used some of Jonathan Burnside’s work. Is that right?
Abigail Pasiuk (16:44)
Yeah, it is it.
Yeah, I have his book and I really, I think we’re tracking very similarly in our approach to justice and our concepts of it.
Dru Johnson (16:58)
Okay, yeah.
I love Jonathan Burnside’s work and he’s written articles for us as well on incarceration. Okay, so we’ve held off this conversation. What are you researching? Like what’s the goal, what do you hope to put out? Give us the elevator pitch and then we can dig in more.
Abigail Pasiuk (17:18)
Sure,
yeah. So basically I’m doing a theological reflection on mass incarceration. And I’m looking at love and justice in the Hebrew Bible as tools to how we can humanely incapacitate and even rehabilitate those that are incarcerated. And this project, ⁓ a big part of why it’s taken this shape is because
Dru Johnson (17:37)
Hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (17:45)
our prison system, ⁓ I can go into this as much as you want or as little as you want to, we were, I know we say we’re a Christian nation founded with Christian principles, it’s in the constitution. So that’s an interesting concept, but also the first prisons in Pennsylvania and New York were started by ⁓ the Quakers and the concept was you’re gonna, yeah, so you’re going to sit in a cell and you’re gonna read your Bible and you’re gonna go do some hard labor. And that was.
Dru Johnson (17:53)
Mm-hmm.
wild.
that makes
total sense, yeah, okay.
Abigail Pasiuk (18:16)
Yeah, yeah. So quite literally, our first prisons had to do with scripture. And ⁓ as it’s kind of evolved over the years, in many court cases, ⁓ this was kind of surprising to me, but yet not entirely, is to advocate for the death penalty or very harsh sentence. In some courtrooms, lawyers have said, you know, an eye for an eye.
Dru Johnson (18:42)
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (18:42)
life
for life. And they go to Lex Tal, what we refer to as Lex Talionis, which is those scriptures to argue for harsher punishment. And ⁓ then we need to go a little bit further and you experience the prison system, it’s retributive at every turn. ⁓ And so I’m kind of, what I want to explore is like, why are they focusing on the retributive justice in the Bible when there’s also
Dru Johnson (18:56)
Mm-hmm. All right.
Abigail Pasiuk (19:08)
huge elements and themes of restorative justice and very transforming types of justice that bring you back into community that make you whole.
Dru Johnson (19:11)
Mm-hmm.
That’s great. mean, anybody who’s listening to this knows that I have argued along with others that retributive justice is kind of a back burner issue in scripture that actually restoration seems to be the primary goal. And there are certain extreme situations where maybe if there’s something like what we consider retributive justice going on at all, it has a very different effect in scripture. ⁓ And everybody on this podcast will have heard me say 15 times, there is no incarceration.
in the biblical system of justice. I mean, the best you get is a city of refuge, but it’s kind of self incarceration. ⁓ So I wonder what you think the biblical authors, you know, thinking just in the Hebrew Bible at this point, what they would think if they walked into our system of incarceration. I’ve taught in a state prison and ⁓ you’ve been in federal prison. You’ve talked to lots of people in state and federal prison. ⁓
Abigail Pasiuk (19:53)
I was just gonna say, yeah.
Dru Johnson (20:17)
What do think their general reactions would be? Or maybe, and I put it this way, do you think they’d go like, yes, this is what we were talking about?
Abigail Pasiuk (20:27)
Right, ⁓ absolutely not. Yeah, I think they would be shocked. And the reason I would say that, I would base it on this. ⁓ You know, the Shema in Deuteronomy, right? Where it says, ⁓ love the Lord your God. Like that’s the first and greatest commandment. And then love your neighbor as yourself. So if you’re coming out of a framework and that’s kind of like the worldview you hold, they don’t…
they’re not doing retribution for punishment. ⁓ Any corrective justice in the Bible is always restoring, is always redemptive, I would say. So I think the idea to, I mean, see people in abusive and just very punitive environment and conditions, I think it’d be foreign to them, quite frankly. I believe this is where you get…
the image of God and that human worth and dignity piece where they held high regard for human life. And so I don’t think they would even dehumanize people the way that we have.
Dru Johnson (21:29)
Hmm. Yeah. So could you give some specifics on what you think is particularly dehumanizing? And maybe we can push past the court system, like how it can happen in the actual system of justice, but you arrive at prison and what are some elements that you find that you think would be found problematic by the biblical authors?
Abigail Pasiuk (21:51)
For sure. Well, back to the dignity piece, I think one of the first things you’re going to notice if you visit a prison or if you ever have ⁓ is you’re reduced to a number. So in a way, your name is kind of erased. ⁓ as I shared with you earlier, my dad served time in a federal prison. And that was.
shocking to see him before my eyes be stripped of his dignity because he quite literally was referred to as a number and that’s basically that’s how you get to him and refer to him when you go to visitation is through his number. If you don’t know that you’re not getting to that person and so I think that’s a very surface level way but beyond that ⁓ a big theme that came up in my interviews was obviously the treatment
Dru Johnson (22:16)
Hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (22:39)
Especially the men were big on being disrespected, being treated less than human, disposable, worthless, those themes. So there’s like personal interactions with the guards and things that bothered them. But then what came up, I would almost argue that you could hear the anger in their voice when they talked about the food. They got so upset because they said the food is so horrible. And there are several guys I talked to that actually worked in the kitchens. And they said, do you know the packaging we get? It says not for human consumption.
Dru Johnson (22:44)
Yeah.
⁓ yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (23:09)
like you’re talking different states, different prisons, and I’m hearing the same thing from multiple people. And ⁓ I can personally vouch for this because my dad, there was times he would say, you get undercooked meat and you get high carbs like pasta and things like that, and almost no produce. And a lot of the produce has already gone bad. So it’s a huge thing and it becomes a huge ⁓ way to kind of make money or a side thing.
Dru Johnson (23:26)
yeah.
yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (23:39)
And it’s, you know, ⁓ yeah, so commissary is like the shop within prison and you can get, honestly, it’s all really unhealthy food. think like a cup of ramen noodles. Yeah. And like a pack of tuna is typically any form of protein in the commissary because there really isn’t any. ⁓ So yeah, think of it like their little shopping way, although it’s not ⁓ at all like the outside world shopping.
Dru Johnson (23:42)
Explain what commissary is real quickly for people.
Honey buns and little debbies Yeah. Yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (24:09)
Yeah, then so protein becomes ⁓ the biggest form of like payment and that’s what everybody wanted. So if you wanted a job done, like another guy in prison can do your laundry for you or give you a haircut, for example, you would pay them with like a tuna packet. And the other form of like currency behind bars is stamps. That’s a really big deal too. So, and that’s something you’d get through commissary and ⁓
you know, as we were speaking of punishment in the different levels of food and stuff within that system, you’re getting paid four to 20 cents an hour for whatever job you do within prison. So being able to afford commissary outside of family, sending money to prison is almost impossible or it takes a long time. And so that’s another layer of where they feel punished. One guy I spoke to, this is kind of funny, but it shows you the level of like, this is how they feel punished, okay?
One guy said, ⁓ you know, my second sentence was so much better. The prison was so much nicer. And I said, can you give me an example of what that means? And he thought about it for a minute and he goes, well, they have plates in the microwave there. And I said, plates in the microwave? And he’s like, have you ever tried to heat your food without a plate in the microwave? It doesn’t heat. And he went on and on about it, but it was viewed as like a safety issue to have the plate in the microwave at the previous facility. So it’s these sometimes like just…
Dru Johnson (25:18)
Hmm.
Right.
Abigail Pasiuk (25:34)
little things. And ⁓ there’s a great book called Carceral Geography and it kind of talks about this. It’s down to the sterile feeling and the industrial feel of the complex, the walls, the flooring, the meals. ⁓ It all plays into punishment at every level.
Dru Johnson (25:53)
Yeah, you know, I was in the military and ⁓ walking into a prison and kind of seeing how everything runs, was like, this is funny. You talk about the time you served in the military, the time you served in prison and the time you serve as a pastor. That’s the three ones for you talking about time served. ⁓ But ⁓ it is very sterile. I the exact same comments I would hear from the prison. I know commissary was a huge deal because ⁓ my students would never miss class for this college program I taught in.
Abigail Pasiuk (26:06)
⁓
Dru Johnson (26:21)
But one day I came in and only like three people were there and I was like, what is going on? And they said, it’s commissary day. They’re waiting in line to pick up their food. But these are people who would not only never miss class, but would be offended if I couldn’t make it for some reason because of snow. They’re like, we’re all here waiting for you. And it does seem small, but I mean, everything is exacerbated in that situation. Everything including like
Abigail Pasiuk (26:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
yes.
Dru Johnson (26:51)
disrespect, know, every side eye, every ⁓ slight verbal ⁓ put down or something like that, everything gets inflated and kind of that pressure cook here. I can hear people saying, well, yeah, they deserve all of this because they committed crimes, right? So what do you do with that response?
Abigail Pasiuk (27:09)
of you.
Yeah, I have to answer that question anytime someone asks me what I’m studying. So yeah, it’s a very common one. And I will say personally, when I would tell people my dad was in prison, they kind of were like, yeah, but he deserves it because you’re not there for no reason type of mentality. so ⁓ what I would point to with people is very practical, which is our recidivism rate.
Dru Johnson (27:20)
yeah, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (27:41)
So
we’re about 60 to 70 % recidivism three to five years out being out of prison and nine to 10 years out, we’re looking at about 82%. So we have an extremely high recidivism rate in some of the worst in the world. And so when you think of, well, they deserve it, they did something, whether you deem it as horrible or maybe not so bad, whatever that thing is, it isn’t working. And what I point people to, and this is something I’m working on within my own
Dru Johnson (28:06)
Mm-hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (28:12)
dissertation is looking at other countries. And so I like to talk about the Norwegian prison system because, you know, they’re always about the top three in countries in the world that have the lowest recidivism rate. And the reason I point to them, and I’ll explain what it’s like and why I believe it works, is about 25 years ago, they had a very similar situation as us. So overcrowded prisons, violent
Dru Johnson (28:18)
yeah, of course.
Abigail Pasiuk (28:39)
violence was rampant. Multiple prison guards had died in a year from inmates killing them. And ⁓ they had horrible health care and food within the system, kind of resembled ours. I know the caveat there is that Norway’s population is equivalent to that about Oregon, right? So it’s a, I understand like, it’s a very different situation. ⁓
Dru Johnson (28:43)
Hmm.
And it’s ethnically homogenous
for the most part.
Abigail Pasiuk (29:06)
Yes, more so, ⁓ for sure. So there’s a lot there and they don’t really have the gang issues that we would have. ⁓ But basically, ⁓ they kind of got together and they’re like, this is not working. So they got a white paper together and the main principle they came up with is the principle of normalcy. And so what that meant was your punishment is your sentence and we’re not allowed to punish you outside of that.
So they did a re-haul of the whole system and within that was, and there was another, and it’s called like the principle of visibility. And so all healthcare has to be external healthcare coming into the prison. All the food has to be from external resources coming into the prison. So it can’t just be prison systems because they saw that abuse was perpetuating with less outside visibility. So it was one way to take that down. You know, if anyone is interested in this topic, it’s really fun to go YouTube.
⁓ hauled in prison in Norway, because there’s a lot of interviews and they walk around the prison and you can get a visual of what it’s like, but that’s their maximum security. So not very many people are there. ⁓ Most are in lower securities, but there’s no fence around the complex. It was an expensive project, I will say that, but they wanted the floors and the walls to resemble that of a home. So everything inside of the prison feels like you’re walking into a house or… ⁓
Dru Johnson (30:07)
yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (30:32)
You know, it’s not that industrial sterile feeling we talked about earlier. there’s a lot of wood. Yeah. And if you look at the rooms, they look more like a dorm room. You’re allowed to have a key to your room and you’re allowed to lock it when you want. Obviously, like there’s, you have a TV and you have books, but they really, they have little kitchens and you’re allowed to cook your own food. And keep in mind, like for a hauled in prison, this is maximum security. So you have to be.
Dru Johnson (30:35)
Right. There’s a lot of wood in their housing.
Abigail Pasiuk (31:01)
kind of a serial rapist or murderer, or you have to have committed some very serious crimes to be there. And yet they are allowed to cook, they can use knives, all of the things. And ⁓ they really ramped up their education. So not just let’s get you a high school diploma type of a thing, it was like, let’s get you in a trade or a specific thing. And they wanted, like I said earlier, the food and the healthcare is that of probably a college or like outside world.
Dru Johnson (31:03)
Hmm.
Abigail Pasiuk (31:29)
And so I think that’s just reinforcing people’s dignity again and again and again. So through all of this, Norway is about, they hover around about 18 % recidivism. it’s in the prior to this, they were in the eighties. So it took a good 25 years. It wasn’t overnight. It was slow and gradual. And, and.
Dru Johnson (31:43)
Wow.
Abigail Pasiuk (31:52)
within all of that as well, just, think this is really important to mention is they really emphasize time with family and communication with people outside. And everyone I’ve spoken to in the prison system and just experiencing it myself, there is barrier after barrier talking to your family, communicating with them. And so I think you don’t realize, like if you want a really healthy, well-adjusted person that’s ready to come back into society, you have to.
Dru Johnson (31:59)
Hmm. Yeah.
Abigail Pasiuk (32:22)
have like this constant stream of communication and treat them as if they’re already there. And ⁓ one gentleman that I’m very good friends with, he actually was my dad’s cellmate in prison. He told me, he said, I wish people knew how punishing it is to have time taken from you and to have your movement restricted, just the sentence alone. And I think… ⁓
Dru Johnson (32:27)
Hmm.
Mm. Mm.
Abigail Pasiuk (32:46)
I think we should ask ourselves, is it serving us well to punish them at every turn and in every conceivable way? And ⁓ it’s obviously not helping the prison environment itself, so.
Dru Johnson (32:57)
Right. Which means it’s not helping the correctional officers or the staff that work there. And we haven’t even talked about post incarceration, what’s going on with incarceration as well. Just the elements of all the, ⁓ you know, the blocking the box, I think is what they call it. You know, having to say I was a convicted felon instantly disqualifies you from most jobs. But, well, I didn’t ask you, do you go by Abby or Abigail?
Abigail Pasiuk (33:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
You know what, I go by Abby to the point where when people say Abigail, kind of like, what’s wrong? Like getting in trouble as a kid, your mom would use your full name.
Dru Johnson (33:32)
That’s me with Andrew.
Right, yeah, my mother is the only one who calls me Andrew and she’s dead now. So nobody calls me Andrew anymore. Well, Abby, thank you so much for your wisdom and I hope we can check back in on you as you get further closer to finishing this thing or maybe after you finish it and hear an update of where it landed.
Abigail Pasiuk (33:40)
Yeah
sure.
Yeah, I would love to do that. Thanks for having me.
