Dru Johnson (00:00)
Does living thousands of years ago in a village far, far away actually make your understanding of theology different? In this week’s episode, we’re going to be talking to doctors Libby Backfish and Cynthia Shafer-Elliot, archaeologists and theologian, working together to think about grounded theology, what they call that working from the village into the thinking of Israel more widely. We’re going to talk about their book, Grounded Theology, and all the various ways
in which being an agrarian subsistence farmer in the ancient Near East makes a difference. Now, please like and subscribe or like and subscribe. And of course, if you want to give, you can reach us at thebiblicalmind.org / give or hebraicthought.org / give.
Libby Backfish (00:47)
Yeah, so we were hoping that this textbook would really connect the dots and bridge the historical context and the theology. Because what we were finding is as much as we try to emphasize both to our students, they would literally come out of Cynthia’s Hebrew Bible world class into my theology class the next semester. And it’s like their brains were trying to switch gears to the point where they were forgetting everything they had learned in Cynthia’s class and forgetting to apply it to what did Israel really believe about God.
Dru Johnson (01:09)
Hmm.
Libby Backfish (01:17)
So thought putting it in one textbook would ⁓ really help model that and kind of shape their brains to do the same.
Dru Johnson (01:26)
And the title grounded, I think I know exactly what you mean, make sure that I do. What do you mean by grounded theology?
Libby Backfish (01:33)
We didn’t want their theologizing to be something that was happening apart from the real world, the real ground that the people were walking on and living in and giving birth on and working in. So we just wanted to make sure that those two things weren’t separate. ⁓
Dru Johnson (01:50)
Yeah, and Cynthia, I mean, makes us ask the instant question, are people doing grounded theology in the 21st century or did we free ourselves? Are we floating now, as it were?
Libby Backfish (02:01)
Hahaha
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (02:02)
That’s a good question. ⁓ I think the reason why we did this book was because people aren’t doing it. We’re so good at compartmentalizing the way we view the world today and then the way we view ancient worlds, and particularly in this context, ancient Israel. And Libby and I had so many conversations about
trying to connect these dots for not just our students, for, because they both do a lot of public scholarship and Libby’s a theologian in residence at her church and you know, just trying to connect all these dots for people who were having a hard time connecting it. Trying to understand Israel’s theologies and how that impacts the way we view God and the nature of God and our relationship to God.
Dru Johnson (02:35)
Hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (03:01)
⁓ But then forgetting that the ⁓ Hebrew Bible is in its own particular contexts and not making those connections. So we’re hoping that our book will help make those connections and help people understand that a lot of the theologies that we’re thinking heavily about and we should be are really connected.
and rooted in Israel’s own particular historical and cultural context.
Dru Johnson (03:34)
Yeah, I feel like.
As somebody who’s been teaching in higher education over the last 25 years, we’ve seen the cultural shifts, especially when it comes to children who were not raised on internet to kids who were raised on internet and now kids who are raised on screens specifically. so the kind of the material life that we, that we grow up in, ⁓ seems to be in high contrast for us now. I, you know, I have to say in class now when I was in college 30 years ago, ⁓ this is the kinds of things we did and talk. I bring in a syllabus.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (03:50)
Hmm.
Dru Johnson (04:06)
syllabus from a class, ⁓ a class on archeology actually, archeology of Missouri that I took in college. It’s one page, single sided, not even, there’s nothing on the back. And it’s the whole syllabus for the whole semester. And I was like, this, this is actually not an unusual syllabus to get. So things have changed. And so I think that kind of gives us a sense that, ⁓ that we, you know, as different as my world is for my students world now, how much more so the iron age or bronze age or. ⁓
classical period of Israel and Judea. And Libby, I want to put that question back to you. Do you feel like there’s a sense that we are doing floating theology, that we’ve left the ground today and we are now free to get into the true theological realm?
Libby Backfish (04:52)
Yeah, I think and I don’t want to blame the Enlightenment for everything, but I think that separation between… Yeah.
Dru Johnson (04:56)
Right. Germans. It’s the Germans.
Libby Backfish (05:01)
separation where theology is the realm of the church, historical and exegetical things are the realm of the university. I think that we’ve inherited that too much. And then even my students who want to get back on the ground with real historical backgrounds, you mentioned how their experience is different from ours. They’re going to YouTube because they’re desperate for good stuff, right? And I’m sure some of the stuff on YouTube is good, but some of it’s not. And so, you know, we wanted to kind of satisfy
Dru Johnson (05:21)
Right.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (05:28)
Hmm.
Libby Backfish (05:31)
their urge for real historical background with expertise from people like Cynthia.
Dru Johnson (05:38)
Yeah.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (05:39)
Well,
I mean, to kind of piggyback off of that, you know, I get a lot of questions from people about archaeology in ancient Israel, but they’re usually sensational things. Ark of the Covenant, Noah’s Ark, you know, those big things which they don’t usually hide. And they don’t, you know, they really don’t want my real answer. They want the answer that’s going to read.
Dru Johnson (05:51)
Mm.
Well now that they’ve been discovered, we can, yeah.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (06:07)
that’s going to confirm their preconceived notions or what they saw on the Discovery Channel or something, going back to Libby’s point about content. But I think what a lot of people maybe don’t realize is how much of archaeology is about the everyday and how did people live and how did they live and how that of course impacts how they view the world and how they view their relationship with their God.
And so if we could help shift that focus like we did within the book, as far as looking at things that would have, you know, been topics that would have been of great concern to your average ancient Israelite.
Dru Johnson (06:47)
Yeah, so let’s go down to the ground. You specialize in household archeology, And so, you know, put us, put us in a room on a square. Like, what are you finding that helps us understand this, this grounded theology that, actually would illuminate things that maybe we hadn’t thought about before.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (06:57)
Ha!
Right, well, shifting our attention to the house where daily life occurred, I think is that first step. mean, of course, we’re historically so-called biblical archaeology has always been interested in, you know, the battlefields and the temples and the palaces and the gates, but that’s not where the stage of daily life occurs. It occurs even still today in our homes. So shifting that focus to the house.
Dru Johnson (07:24)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (07:36)
the people who lived in that house, the household members, ⁓ and the artifacts within it and how that space was used. And so when we conduct household archaeology, when we’re actually doing the excavating, we pay a lot of attention to where artifacts are, like their space, where they’re located, their find spots, if you will. And so then we document where those artifacts are.
and where they are in relation to the rest of the house and to other artifacts and features. So features would be things that are immovable, like ovens and pillars and things like that. So we’re looking at that spatial relationship between the artifacts and the house and the features, which then can help us determine what type of activities occurred in those spaces. So if we have a cluster of loom weights in
next to a wall of a house, we know that there was once a loom there and a loom and the weights that were on it were used to weave ⁓ things into, you know, fabric wool into strands of wool into rugs and ⁓ clothes and things like that. So we can get an idea that that activity of weaving took place in this room. But one of the things that’s really interesting, I think for the modern mind to
to kind of recalibrate is that we’re so used to having houses that have a specific function in a particular room. So of course it depends on the size of your house, but some people have a library, a study, an office, if you will, or some people, if they’re really into crafts, they have a craft room or a kid room or something like that. That would not have been the case with them. Everything would have been, ⁓
Dru Johnson (09:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (09:34)
They didn’t have the houses weren’t that big. had to the space was very utilitarian. So we find activities related to all sorts of activities in one room. So you could find the loom weights. You could also find a cooking oven. You could also find artifacts related to household religion. And that’s another thing that surprises people is wait a minute. They they worshiped at home. Yeah, they did. Because, you know,
Dru Johnson (09:58)
Mmm, right.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (10:02)
to walk to a local shrine or temple would have taken quite some time. And if you’re a farmer, which everybody was, you can’t leave your farm for a week on end just to go on a week’s walk up to Jerusalem, let’s say, to offer your sacrifices. So a lot of things that the Bible says happened focuses more on where those happened in temples and palaces where actually they probably also happened at home.
Dru Johnson (10:17)
Hmm.
Hmm. Okay. So you said theologies earlier and I think there is kind of a naive, I think this is true that a lot of people, when they think of ancient Israel, the Hebrews, they think these were all these clear eyed monotheists who all had the exact same God, exact same view, doing the exact same thing. There’s very purest version of Hebrews, but when you get into the households, not even the monuments, it just gets complicated, right? As far as their religious practices.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (11:00)
very much so. Yeah. And I think that’s one thing that if people read the Hebrew Bible, it’s not just about the archaeology, but if you read the Hebrew Bible, I know it’s hard, but if you can get past Leviticus and Numbers, I think you’ll do all right. ⁓ where you see, Israel was supposed to, according to our biblical authors and editors, was supposed to worship Yahweh alone, but
But to answer that question, did they do a very good job at that? No, they didn’t. And the biblical text even tells us that they didn’t. They were supposed to, ⁓ but they didn’t. And then archaeology also supports that view that we do have in households. We do have proof of ⁓ religious rituals being conducted. And we think because of some of these figurines that were in place that we think were probably household.
Dru Johnson (11:33)
Hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (11:58)
what we might call today idols, were representations of these different possible theories that they are representations of these different deities that they worship.
Dru Johnson (12:09)
⁓ yeah, that’s great. So, ⁓ Libby, I’m wondering, going back to the book that you guys have written, sorry, you gals have written, yeah, the book y’all have written. I’m from Oklahoma. can swing with y’all. ⁓ yeah. So what you’ve put together is, is not just, you know, it’s not just a book that tells you here are the artifacts and here’s the archeology, but you’re trying to get, ⁓ from my reading of it is you’re trying to get the audience.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (12:17)
Y’all.
Libby Backfish (12:18)
you
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (12:21)
You can.
Dru Johnson (12:37)
to enter a world in which soil was important, rain was important, the value of work, how much work could be done, injury, all that kind of stuff. I guess, could you connect the dots between that and theology? Because ⁓ I think we can imagine my grandparents’ lives who went through the depression and had to kind of raise their own food and that kind of thing. But what does that have to do with their theology?
Libby Backfish (13:02)
Yeah, so and entering in through the land chapter, and I feel like with all these chapters they all interconnect. Land to us might just feel like such a physical or irrelevant kind of thing, especially if we’re not farmers, but for Israel they literally, they come from the dust, right? They are a part of the land theologically and according to their, at least their second creation account. And the land represented to them God’s fulfilled promise to them. So it being on the land represented that God was making good on
Dru Johnson (13:17)
Hmm.
Libby Backfish (13:32)
on
his promises, he was there with them. But also, and I think in writing this and in learning from Cynthia, the thing that surprised me most about the theology is it’s not just about their relationship with God, but their relationship with each other. Fellow Israelites, the sojourner on the land, servants, there’s this whole ecology and economy wrapped up in land and food production and work.
Dru Johnson (13:45)
Mm-hmm.
Libby Backfish (13:57)
⁓ that I think what challenges a lot of modern people who are very much individually focused rather than that communal household and clan and beyond ⁓ and very much ⁓ rooted on this good creation land that’s kind of a know a microcosm of creation, a reflection of Eden and it’s very much part of Israel’s covenant obligation to be faithful on the land that God’s given them for them to keep the land or the land like a
character in the story itself will vomit them out.
Dru Johnson (14:30)
Hmm.
Yeah. It’s shocking to me. And this is, you know, when I was doing some original, I think my doctoral research where I was just reading through Genesis one through 11 again, and I couldn’t believe how much dirt shows up as a character, ⁓ as a primary feature of the story. actually motivates, I think the Noah story in many ways. yeah. And so don’t think we think of our relationship that way.
Libby Backfish (14:45)
Hmm.
Dru Johnson (14:55)
Let me check you and make sure I hear you correctly. ⁓ The claim then is that how you till your land has something to do with your relationship with God versus their relationship being this kind of inner peaceful thing they carried around with them in their hearts or their souls or something like that.
Libby Backfish (15:14)
Yes, I mean that’s made pretty explicit in the Hebrew Bible. One of the reasons for exile wasn’t just their failure to worship Yahweh rightly or to treat others well, but they didn’t give the land the sabbatical years that it deserved. That was one of the reasons that they were sent into exile and the land has that rest. I think that’s spiritual, but it’s also more than spiritual. It’s the physical need of the land, which goes all the way back to first, know, to Adam being told to care for the garden and work it well.
Dru Johnson (15:43)
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it, it sounds to me like all the elements are here to have, that Christians and Jews who think these texts have some authoritative sway in our lives, that how we treat the earth should be like a central focus in some sort, how we treat, think in the Torah, you get a lot of how you treat animals is another, ⁓ matter of concern right alongside how you treat people in matters of justice or foreigners. okay. So.
If that’s always going on, how do you have some idea? Well, okay, let me go back one step because there was a question you talked about that
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (16:19)
Thank
Dru Johnson (16:21)
the land would remind them of Eden. I’ve lived in Israel. I was just there a couple of weeks ago during the rainy season. So in the rainy season, might think Eden, but the rest of the year, like I always tell my students.
Libby Backfish (16:30)
Hahaha
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (16:31)
It’s like California.
Dru Johnson (16:34)
Yeah, I was like,
there’s a fertile crescent, but there’s one spot that’s actually a crappy spot on the fertile crescent, and that’s right where God took Israel, right? So I do wonder what you all make in Yishun a lot of time, and working in the dirt there, Cynthia, and of course where you’re at, it’s a little bit more fertile up there, but, Tell Beit Ma’akah, but, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so what do you do with the fact that
Libby Backfish (16:42)
Yes.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (16:53)
Well, I’ve been all over the place, but some places are nicer than others, that’s for sure.
Dru Johnson (17:01)
God brings Israel into a fairly crappy place as far as people who are going to be agrarian subsistence farmers.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (17:10)
Yeah, that’s a good question. ⁓ You know, when we talk about the land itself, when we’re talking about the land is just as much part of their household, is part of their ancestry, it’s part of the things that are passed on from father to son to son to son. I mean, I guess I think Israel is beautiful. I mean, I’ve been there. I mean, of course.
Dru Johnson (17:33)
It is beautiful. We all say this
as people who can stop at the rest stop and grab a drink when we need one.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (17:40)
That’s true, I live, but
Libby Backfish (17:40)
Yep.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (17:42)
no offense, but I live in Texas now. mean, in comparison, right. But I mean, coming, being from California, in particular, Northern California, where, you know, Libby is, it’s beautiful. but when, I mean, certain parts of Israel are, would probably have been more inhabitable than others. I mean, of course we have to think about how
Dru Johnson (17:44)
okay.
No further comments should be made. ⁓
Libby Backfish (17:49)
Hahaha
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (18:09)
climate and environment has changed over these many years. But if you think about in the North, you get so much more rain. It’s very much like California where you have a dry season and a wet season. And in the wet season, you get a lot more rain in the North than you do in the South. ⁓ And so part of the fertility of the land that you see talked about, and especially when you think about some of these
Dru Johnson (18:18)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (18:37)
these prophets, these eighth century prophets that are really getting on the northern kingdom of Israel’s case in particular about how you think you’re being blessed, but you’re really just taking advantage. But they’re able to be think that they’re blessed in a way because the goodness of the land in the north is so much better than the goodness of the land in the south. I mean, you get that Shfala, that hill country leading up to the…
the mountains where you end up finding Jerusalem, and those would have been very fertile, but nothing compares to that Jezreel Valley up in the North. ⁓ But yeah, I mean, it would have been, they would have been, I think because we’re so disconnected from the land, we’re so disconnected from the food that we eat, that we really.
Dru Johnson (19:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (19:30)
If there’s a drought, which there often is both in California and Texas, the only way we really feel it is, hey, you can’t water your lawn every day, you know, whereas opposed to, hey, my family is struggling to find enough food to eat. ⁓ So as far as the importance of the land and the everyday life and the goodness of it, I think.
Dru Johnson (19:41)
Right.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (19:58)
I try to just say, oh, I’m going to put myself in their shoes. But even then, I think I still don’t quite fully grasp it because that has not been my lived experience. I’m 21st century American who probably has too much to eat as opposed to too little.
Dru Johnson (20:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Libby Backfish (20:20)
I would say the crappy parts of the land are part of the point, right? God has given them an excellent land to remind them of how good he is to them and the crappy parts of the land to give them an opportunity to trust in him and depend on him. And it also, like to Cynthia’s point, it gives me a little bit of empathy. It’s so easy to judge Israel for their idolatry, but if they are struggling on a land that’s failing to produce and these other deities are claiming to be, you know, to be providing for their people.
Dru Johnson (20:23)
Right.
You
Libby Backfish (20:50)
That would be very tempting. Yeah.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (20:51)
It would, wouldn’t it?
Dru Johnson (20:53)
Well,
yeah, I always try to point out when it says they’re worshiping the other gods, it’s not like they’re going to a different church on Sunday. ⁓ it’s they’re, they’re turning in desperation, right? ⁓
Libby Backfish (21:00)
Right!
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (21:04)
And it’s not like Baal is the god of fire, he’s the god of water and rain. So they’re specifically tied to the very things they want. And I always wonder if there’s also, you you move into a land, I just moved to Michigan two years ago, I talked to lot of locals about, is the winter like this? What should I expect for the summer? Like local knowledge also feeds in. If the locals are all saying, you can play with Yahweh all you want, but this Baal guy’s got it going on, I think I would be tempted to listen as well. Yeah. ⁓
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (21:30)
Right.
Dru Johnson (21:34)
How much do you think in the Hebrew Bible?
I mean, there’s always going to be this cult. you said, we live in 21st century opulence. Our broke college students live better than any European king ever did. ⁓ so how do we cross that gap besides just learning about it? ⁓ I wonder how do you, you know, conceptualize a world in which somebody only knows working very hard for very long periods of time, constantly tending in order to eke calories out of the ground. ⁓ that seems like a very
privileged perspective into what it means to be one of God’s people settled in this land. Do you have a cheat code on how to get the rest of us there without having to do any of the work or suffer from any of the malnutrition?
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (22:20)
and
Libby Backfish (22:23)
would say ⁓ short of time travel, think listening to people who are in analogous situations today might be a really helpful way to empathize. Even though our, as you said, our Broke College students are still richer than ancient Eastern kings, there are people who are struggling in similar ways and to really listen to them I think will help us get closer to that grounded theology.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (22:46)
Mm.
Dru Johnson (22:46)
Hmm.
Yeah, I teach pastors in Western Kenya or I did for many years and they, I remember them trying to get me to explain the agrarian parables to them. And I was like, wait, aren’t you guys all farmers? and don’t your crops fail sometimes? Like you explained to me what’s going on here, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then they, gave me, started voicing some very basic issues. My mind was being successively blown by what they said.
Libby Backfish (23:01)
Yeah, teach me!
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (23:04)
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Right.
Hmm.
Dru Johnson (23:15)
It is a great way that we can listen to the majority world church though, where they can really teach us how to read scripture ⁓ more faithfully. ⁓ I’m interested also in that gap where you said students would take a class with you, Cynthia, and then they, know, semester or two later, I’ve experienced this many times. It’s like their brains get wiped on the way out the door or something. And they swear they’ve never been taught about a footnote in their entire life. And I had to go back to the English professors and go, are you teaching these kids about footnotes? ⁓
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (23:22)
Great.
Thank
haha
Dru Johnson (23:45)
So I wonder what you attribute that to, that lack of being able to connect those two things, because you’re both are in presumably liberal arts-ish colleges that ⁓ preserve the idea of a general education. So what do you think is going on there?
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (24:03)
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if the sequence of classwork of the courses is an issue or not. I don’t think so. But I think a lot of the times students come into the classroom. Well, first of all, we can’t assume anymore that people have any kind of basic knowledge about the Bible. I think we’re in a post-Christian environment.
Dru Johnson (24:26)
yeah. Yeah.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (24:31)
where we can no longer assume that there’s a common denominator of basic knowledge, ⁓ whether it’s, you know, regardless of what someone says that they’re identifies in their faith journey. ⁓ So one, when we get into the classroom, they all have to take, you know, a basic intro course into before they can take some of these upper division classes that we offer. ⁓ And so you
Dru Johnson (24:57)
Hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (25:01)
hope that they come in with some sort of foundation that we can then build on that. But so one, I think we have to remember that we’re not in that kind of environment where we can assume prior knowledge. But then also, those that have prior knowledge, comes from, mostly comes from their pastors preaching on Sundays, ⁓ who very rarely these days do pastors preach, you know, from the Hebrew Bible.
Dru Johnson (25:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (25:30)
⁓
or ⁓ and it and my husband’s a pastor I can really you know empathize with this is that you have such a short amount of time to give ⁓ you know a message an encouraging message that they can take throughout the week and so a lot of churches no longer do Christian education and so
Dru Johnson (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (25:52)
you know, they come into these classes with, you know, very limited knowledge. And some of the knowledge they do have is like, let me say it earlier from YouTube or, you know, Discovery Channel or something like that. And so it’s often quite flawed. So not only are we trying to build on that, but we’re also trying to kind of backtrack with some of this stuff that they’ve learned. ⁓ But as far as, you know, connecting those dots between the two classes,
Dru Johnson (26:02)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (26:22)
I don’t know, I think part of that compartmentalizing, you know, happens still quite a bit. I don’t think they can see that connection between the historical cultural context and the theologies. And so it may not be obvious to them, like it is obvious to us, but then we get that privilege to be able to get in there and show that connection to them, which is, you one reason why, you know,
Dru Johnson (26:35)
Hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (26:49)
This book was really Libby’s idea. it should really, I think was, it came out of a lived experience between her and the classroom and me in the classroom as well. What do you think Libby?
Dru Johnson (26:56)
Hmm.
Libby Backfish (27:02)
Yeah.
I would just add that I think our contexts are so strong and the voices we hear are so much louder than what we hear in the classroom. And so even though the students who love Cynthia’s class and they hang on her every word and they ace the class, it’s just there are a lot of other voices competing. So if you take like, for example, the idea of law, it has been ingrained in so many people’s brain that biblical law is just like modern legislation or that biblical law is somehow opposed to grace.
Dru Johnson (27:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (27:32)
Mm-hmm.
Dru Johnson (27:32)
Mm-hmm.
⁓
Libby Backfish (27:32)
you know,
one semester of digging into the historical context of law is sometimes just not enough. so ⁓ it’s helpful to really hold them by the hand and see, if this is what biblical law really looked like, if it’s really more of instruction, and if it’s really connected with wisdom, then let’s read these scriptures together. Set aside what you think about modern legislation and think about how they would have understood it then how it connects to our lives. I feel like sometimes too maybe when we teach the
Dru Johnson (27:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Libby Backfish (28:02)
historical context, if we’re not connecting to their lives, it’s easier for them to forget it. You know, like anything you learn. If you don’t have anything for it to hang on or to change you or challenge you in some way. ⁓ So okay, let’s dig into the history, but let’s connect it to your life so it’s going to stick.
Dru Johnson (28:06)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (28:07)
Hmm.
Dru Johnson (28:17)
Yeah. I remember early on when I was teaching freshmen, I was complaining to somebody about how difficult it is to open their minds to certain things, how resistant they were in the Bible. And, and my friend said, well, don’t you get them for like a whole semester? And I said, I know exactly. was like, a whole semester is nothing compared to 18 years of tradition.
Libby Backfish (28:36)
You
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (28:39)
⁓
Libby Backfish (28:44)
Mm-hmm.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (28:44)
Yeah,
Dru Johnson (28:44)
So,
and again, it’s not like we’re trying to brainwash anybody. We’re just trying to get them to see multiple perspectives and there is so much resistance.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (28:45)
that’s a point.
Dru Johnson (28:53)
So I can have a semester where we, know, at end of the semester, everybody agrees biblical law is not just legislation that’s either broken or kept. And then they move on to the next class and they’re like, well, I’m not just a legalist, right? You know, and they, it’s like, everything’s out the window. And, ⁓ I used to get them in the junior year and it says if nothing had happened, you know, ⁓
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (29:00)
Yeah.
Right.
But I think we’re battling too this idea within at least Protestant Christian circles, this kind of, and they’re not reading the Hebrew Bible. And to be honest, a lot of them aren’t really that interested. They’re so into Jesus and the Gospels and Acts and Paul, dare I say. You know, that they’re not…
Dru Johnson (29:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
A bit.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (29:42)
darn, we have to fight against this kind of, okay, they’ve been taught and sometimes they’ve been taught that, you don’t need that anymore. And it’s like, no, you do, because this was for the most part for here or there, it’s Jesus’s Bible. If you do truly wanna understand Jesus and Jesus’s teachings, you have to have an understanding of the Hebrew Bible.
Dru Johnson (29:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I have so many tricks that I play on them. Like who said love your neighbors yourself? Jesus like, nope, wrong. You but you almost, you almost have to do that to shake them awake. Right. You have to play like Nietzsche’s mad man running around going God is dead. Okay. Now let’s talk about God. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. The name of the book is grounded theology. I’m
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (30:17)
⁓ hahahaha!
Libby Backfish (30:23)
Yeah.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (30:23)
Absolutely.
Libby Backfish (30:27)
You
Dru Johnson (30:34)
Again, I’m snowed in, so I don’t have the book in front of me. Otherwise I would be holding it up right now. Yes. Thank you very much. And can you read the subtitle or do you know the subtitle by heart?
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (30:37)
Heather right here.
I never memorize the subtitle, but Granite Theology and the Hebrew Bible, Exploring the Cultural Context that Formed Ancient Israel. That’s the whole title.
Dru Johnson (30:45)
Neither do I.
Libby Backfish (30:46)
you
Dru Johnson (30:53)
⁓
and who’s that? it with Zondervan or Baker? It’s Baker. Yeah. Cause I’ve seen it the bigger. Sorry, Brandy. I knew it was from Baker. I know. I know. I know. That’s actually the only reason I know it’s from Baker. I corrected myself quickly. Well, let me in Cynthia. Thank you very much for your wisdom.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (30:57)
Baker.
Libby Backfish (30:57)
Baker.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (31:01)
hahahaha
Libby Backfish (31:01)
Yeah, our books
released at the same time, Drew. We were in the same catalog together.
Cynthia Shafer-Elliott (31:10)
Hahaha.
Thanks for having us, Drew.
Libby Backfish (31:15)
Thank you, Drew. It’s
been a pleasure.
